| --- Log opened Sun Mar 06 00:00:41 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Mar 06 2016 | ||
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| nsh | the bitcoincore slack wasn't a joke? :/ | 00:44 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | Why is everyone obsessed with Slack? | 00:45 |
| fluffypony | I mean, it's great for small teams, but horrible for public interaction | 00:45 |
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| nsh | it's just better than alternatives. which is nothing but an indictment of previous efforts :) | 00:46 |
| fluffypony | Now now | 00:47 |
| fluffypony | Let's not reject IRC+ZNC just yet | 00:47 |
| fluffypony | It's worked well for like 25 years... :) | 00:47 |
| nsh | yeah, i think irc has just been waiting for something like a browser but not evidently the product of satan before evolving rich inline content | 00:48 |
| * nsh looks at https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/ | 00:49 | |
| fluffypony | All the IRC clients I use support inline URl expansion, so there's that | 00:49 |
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| MRL-Relay | [smooth] win6 | 02:33 |
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| qwerty777 | Donate me please a new PC)1Nuj3pwSaXn4GE2WoVEAiDKTaPozo4mpVX)sorry and thanks) | 05:14 |
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| fluffypony | qwerty777: NO, stop it now | 05:20 |
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| qwerty777 | ok) | 05:27 |
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| kanzure | using channel #mit-dci for mit bitcoin expo 2016 | 08:00 |
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| tromp | gmaxwell: i tested all the highwayhash implementations in my setting, and all were slower than my current siphash implementation | 08:30 |
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| jeremyrubin | quick question: has anyone have handy analysis on security of something like `reduce(xor, [hash(d) for d in data])`? at what `len(data)` does it break down? | 09:49 |
| jeremyrubin | Ie, how does xor compare to merkle tree. | 09:50 |
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| maaku | jeremyrubin at Len=2 | 10:02 |
| maaku | Xor is never secure | 10:03 |
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| jeremyrubin | No way? | 10:14 |
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| gmaxwell | jeremyrubin: it's trivially insecure. you can use a simple algorithim to find a collission, with lots of inputs. | 10:17 |
| gmaxwell | (e.g. block lanczos) | 10:19 |
| Aleph0 | xor never secure? you can xor plain text with the same length of random data, and thats considered secure, afaik. | 10:19 |
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| nsh | Aleph0, not as the 'hash' function for a merkle tree | 10:20 |
| jeremyrubin | Aleph0: was for a different thing | 10:20 |
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| nsh | [sorry, as the combining function in a merkle tree (which requires the property of a strong hash function)] | 10:22 |
| gmaxwell | jeremyrubin: toy example, first genrate lots of data, a couple times the length of the hash in bits. Then pair them up to cancel out bit 0.. you now have a bigger colection of values which is all 0 for bit 1... then pair up the pairs to cancel out bit 1 and so on. this is an inefficient algorthim but it shows the insecurity. | 10:23 |
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| jeremyrubin | gmaxwell: cool, thanks | 10:25 |
| jeremyrubin | I'm still curious as to what a closed form lower bound might be | 10:27 |
| jeremyrubin | but maybe it's a fools errand | 10:27 |
| jeremyrubin | thanks for the reference to block lanczos | 10:27 |
| gmaxwell | tromp: interesting, the authors were claiming it was faster at all sizes. | 10:28 |
| jeremyrubin | (for the use case I'm thinking of, it would be ok to have a hash that is much longer, the out-of-order property is what's important) | 10:28 |
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| tromp | gmaxwell: faster than the reference siphash impl perhaps | 10:29 |
| jeremyrubin | I guess in terms of asking the question I am really trying to ask, are there "out of order" merkle-like sets? It would need to be a deterministic function of course. | 10:30 |
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| gmaxwell | tromp: hm. perhaps they made it sound like they were saying that it was faster than a highly optimized implementation. | 10:31 |
| gmaxwell | jeremyrubin: there are, using number theoretic hash operations, which have large hashes and or are slow. | 10:32 |
| tromp | gmaxwell: their plain siphash impl was about 5 to 10% slower than mine. i can send you the code i used | 10:33 |
| gmaxwell | (and many don't admit efficient membership proofs) | 10:33 |
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| nsh | hmm | 10:36 |
| nsh | wouldn't that be an accumulator? | 10:37 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: yes. | 10:38 |
| nsh | (the hash-function is chosen to be quasicommutative so that the order of entry/reduction is irrelevant) | 10:38 |
| * nsh nods | 10:38 | |
| Madars | jeremyrubin: for an even easier solution -- it breaks down using just plain Gaussian elimination. once #blocks > hash_output_size_in_bits, you are busted | 10:45 |
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| jeremyrubin | I think accumulator doesn't have the property of being constructable identically? | 10:57 |
| jeremyrubin | eg, can you have Alice and Bob both construct accumulators and compare if they have the same data without having to query each item? | 10:58 |
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| Madars | that is not required by completeness/soundness of the acumulator, but, in fact, many accumulators achieve it. | 11:02 |
| Madars | e.g. RSA accumulator does achieve it | 11:03 |
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| zooko | maaku: thanks for your advice! | 11:05 |
| zooko | maaku: I don't think it is correct that botnets dominated Bitcoin mining. I investigated it at the time, and it was substantial, but not dominant. | 11:05 |
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| zooko | I have my notes (because I posted them publicly, which is apparently the only way I can keep track of notes over time). | 11:05 |
| zooko | If you carwe. | 11:05 |
| zooko | maaku: at the moment I'm thinking that I'm going to have to allow a degree of GPU-friendliness in order to get the other things that I require: low risk of a breakthrough, soon deployment, and cheap verification. | 11:06 |
| zooko | Hey, what are y'all talking about? That sounds interesting. | 11:07 |
| * zooko goes to the logs... | 11:07 | |
| nsh | a breakthrough? | 11:07 |
| zooko | nsh: low risk that someone will come up with a substantially cheaper method of mining. | 11:07 |
| * nsh nods | 11:08 | |
| nsh | good luck bounding progress with friendliness :) | 11:08 |
| zooko | nsh: I don't understand! | 11:08 |
| nsh | i mean something like allowing GPU-friendliness doesn't entail a guarantee against progress, all else considered equal | 11:09 |
| nsh | against *rapid progress | 11:09 |
| zooko | By "progress" do you mean devising more efficient methods of mining? | 11:09 |
| * nsh nods | 11:09 | |
| zooko | Or do you mean the "progress" in "progress freedom" as a criterion of PoW algorithms? | 11:09 |
| zooko | Okay, so I didn't mean to imply that GPU-friendliness *helps* against such breakthroughs. | 11:10 |
| nsh | right, pardon my misinterpretation | 11:10 |
| zooko | It's just that to get all of those desiderata, I have to pick from a small number of options, | 11:10 |
| zooko | and none of the options currently offer all of that *and* GPU-resistance, AFAICT. | 11:10 |
| * nsh nods | 11:10 | |
| nsh | what are the options currently? | 11:11 |
| zooko | Whereas some offer (better, arguably) GPU-resistance but don't offer the rest, namely cheap verification. | 11:11 |
| zooko | nsh: SHA256d, some other hashcash, Cuckoo, Argon2d, Equihash, scrypt | 11:11 |
| zooko | I love this topic but unfortunately I have to go shopping now. :-) I'll catch up by looking at the public logs when I return... | 11:11 |
| nsh | enjoy :) | 11:12 |
| zooko | "Equihash" is my current favorite, and it is also known as Biryukov & Khovratovich Generalized Birthday Problem | 11:12 |
| nsh | (s/oy/ure/ as appropriate) | 11:12 |
| zooko | bye! | 11:12 |
| nsh | Asymmetric proof-of-work based on the Generalized Birthday problem -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/946 | 11:12 |
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| nsh | "To make it amortization-free, we develop the technique called algorithm binding by exploiting the fact that Wagner's algorithm carries its footprint on a solution." | 11:18 |
| nsh | any idea what this means? | 11:18 |
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| tromp_ | they want to force you to use a specific algorithm to solve a cleanly defined problem | 11:27 |
| tromp_ | because they think they can prove minimum resource bounds for that algorithm | 11:28 |
| arubi | nsh, this sounds like "momentum" in protoshares | 11:28 |
| tromp_ | so they force you by requiring extra output specific to that algorithm | 11:28 |
| arubi | actually... ctrl+f "momentum" yields 7.. | 11:28 |
| nsh | ah | 11:29 |
| tromp_ | anyway that's the impression i got | 11:29 |
| * nsh nods | 11:29 | |
| gmaxwell | tromp_: thats what the text there sounds like to me. | 11:31 |
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| tromp_ | it's like they try to cover up the ugliness by naming it as a technique:) | 11:31 |
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| gmaxwell | I don't know how one efficiently verifies such a thing; at least for arbritary algorithims... unless they're saving the whole execution trace so the verifier can sample it. | 11:32 |
| tromp_ | gmaxwell: i added my own siphash impl as a new entry in the highwayhash benchmark suite, and when fixing all sizes to 8 bytes, it yields: | 11:34 |
| tromp_ | ScalarSipTreeHash 8 sum=17034630523489198832 GBps=0.10 c/b=36.57 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | ScalarHighwayTreeHash 8 sum=6451096015771023257 GBps=0.06 c/b=60.86 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | SipHash 8 sum=7421369594465530093 GBps=0.64 c/b=5.49 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | MySipHash 8 sum=7421369594465530093 GBps=0.84 c/b=4.15 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | SipTreeHash 8 sum=17034630523489198832 GBps=0.17 c/b=20.60 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | HighwayTreeHash 8 sum=6451096015771023257 GBps=0.67 c/b=5.26 | 11:35 |
| tromp_ | so you see MySipHash being the fastest | 11:35 |
| gmaxwell | indeed! and yours is compatible with the oriinal sipahash. | 11:37 |
| tromp_ | yes, good to see matching checksum:) | 11:38 |
| tromp_ | if i wanted a faster hash, i'd change siphash-2-4 into siphash-1-2 with only half the rounds | 11:39 |
| tromp_ | hmm, let me bench that one... | 11:40 |
| tromp_ | it becomes MySipHash 8 sum=12676441542898061366 GBps=1.43 c/b=2.45 | 11:42 |
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| pigeons | zooko: why is scrypt considered? which criteon of an ideal PoW hash does it meet? | 14:21 |
| tromp_ | the only reason not to choose sha256 is to try avoid asics | 14:25 |
| tromp_ | hashcash with scrypt is a complicated way to fail achieving that | 14:26 |
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| tromp_ | at this point i also have to question zooko's sanity | 14:27 |
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| gmaxwell | pigeons: scrypt has some pretty bad TMTOs that admit efficient asics; so basically they're more expensive to design fast circuits for, but still relatively cheap to produce fast circuits. The effect in theory, and -- it seems-- practice is that there are fewer vendors of fast asics which you cannot economically mine without. | 14:59 |
| gmaxwell | which is pretty much a worst case outcome for something hoping to improve equality of access. | 15:00 |
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| gmaxwell | Best case: ordinary computers are as good as the best custom hardware; next best is that custom hardware is better BUT it's maximally easy to produce so there is ample competition in that business; worst is that custom hardware is superior and making competative custom hardware is hard (or even restricted by patents) so there is a near monopoly in it. | 15:01 |
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| gmaxwell | I'm of the (far from proven opinion) that criteria #1 is not meaningfully possible for profitable mining-pow (because competition means that eventually even a small advantage will favor custom hardware)-- and as a result one should probably spend effort avoiding #3 even if it reduces the odds of achieving #1. But regardless, under this framework scrypt is probably a strict loser. | 15:03 |
| gmaxwell | Also, the symmetrical verification cost of the litecoin style scrypt is pretty awful; it's much easier to dos attack litecoin nodes and mining pools because the POW is thousands of times slower to verify than sha256^2. Fortunately for litecoin and friends few people care to dos attack them, but that doesn't make it a good design. | 15:05 |
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| Aleph0 | is it possible to construct a lottery scheme where a winning node would be determined by the somewhat random latencies between nodes in the network? | 15:05 |
| Aleph0 | this way every node is a mining node, and the more nodes you have, the higher are your chances of winning, stimulating interest in maintaining more and more of full nodes? | 15:06 |
| nsh | short answer: no, with a but. long answer: the but was also a no | 15:08 |
| nsh | (the hash lottery is verifiable by all network participants. network jitter can be faked, can't be easily proved or verified) | 15:09 |
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| nsh | any source of entropy for network role attribution has to be oracular, i would venture | 15:11 |
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| gmaxwell | Aleph0: question is underdefined; but I think even using an expasive view of what you're asking no such scheme would be simulation resistant... meaning that someone who was offline couldn't tell if the history they saw was totally forged or not. Generally things that aren't immune to simulation are also not convergent in real (asynchronous) networks... the asynchronicity of the participants is eq | 15:16 |
| gmaxwell | uivilent to the participants randomly joining and leaving... they'll get different views of the network and not agree. | 15:16 |
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| gmaxwell | Aleph0: besides, someone spinning up a bunch of nodes does nothing of value for the network; the opposite, in fact-- doing so would be effectively a sybil attack. | 15:17 |
| nsh | (what we do desire is diversity of node operators, but we can't easily proxy-measure that through number of nodes) | 15:18 |
| Aleph0 | nsh: or at least that every node is a mining node, that would be a good start. | 15:19 |
| gmaxwell | Aleph0: when you hear about people expressing concern about the decline of node count, it's not a concern related to capacity-- because of how bitcoin works, it would function fine with just a couple nodes, better in fact-- the concern is related to the lost of independant/autotonymous verification-- that people are trusting third parties rather than enforcing the rules themselves. | 15:19 |
| Aleph0 | diversity operators cannot be possibly proven. how would you ever know who ruks what nodes? | 15:19 |
| Aleph0 | diversity of operators* | 15:19 |
| gmaxwell | so if the incentives are setup to encourage a single party to run many nodes, then that doesn't help-- and it hurts by potentially making things look more diverse than they are, and increasing the risk that someone making random connections ends up partitioned from everyone else by a single party. | 15:20 |
| gmaxwell | Aleph0: you can't really measure it but absent any incentive for a party to spin up a lot of nodes; counting gives a first order approximation. | 15:20 |
| Aleph0 | gmaxwell: i dont think the absolute number of nodes is all that important. if every single node is also a profitably mining node - its a much better situation. | 15:20 |
| nsh | it satisfices that there is not an obvious monoculture of transaction verification. | 15:20 |
| Aleph0 | this way it would be rather difficult to sway miners opinions. | 15:21 |
| gmaxwell | Aleph0: again, all that would do is incentivize sybil attacks (assuming it worked at all), you wouldn't get more nodes but just "nodes". The whole invention of mining is a solution to the sybil problems on open and decenteralized networks. | 15:22 |
| gmaxwell | (while trying to think about improving something about mining it's critical to keep in mind what mining exists for in the first place!) | 15:23 |
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| Aleph0 | my interest is in finding areas where diseconomies of scale prevent centralization of resources. | 15:26 |
| Aleph0 | i can only think of communication between nodes being a source of such diseconomies. | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | thats great, but there is no such diseconomy in communication between nodes. | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | (after all, one can always simulate more nodes with worse communication between them) | 15:27 |
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| Aleph0 | its not about better or worse communication. its just that the network complexity goes up very rapidly witn increasing number of nodes. | 15:34 |
| Aleph0 | bug i guess you can simulate any arbitrary situation like that. | 15:34 |
| Aleph0 | heh, boils down to a proof of work of sorts in the end anyway. | 15:35 |
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