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| Taek | it's not really a wizardly talk, but I endorse this nonetheless: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/pindar-wong/ | 08:59 |
|---|---|---|
| bsm117532 | That was definitely one of the best from the conference. Another thing got a lot out of was the description of sha-3 competitions, and how we should bring something similar to crypto-ledgers. | 09:01 |
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| Taek | I would be infavor of both a POW competition and a difficulty-adjustment-algorithm competition | 09:06 |
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| Taek | Actually, one thing I think we really need is better clock synchronization, ntp is unfortunately deficient | 09:07 |
| fluffypony | Taek: what's wrong with NTP? | 09:10 |
| fluffypony | asking genuinely, I have no idea | 09:10 |
| gmaxwell | it has absolutely no security | 09:10 |
| fluffypony | ah | 09:11 |
| gmaxwell | no resistance to byzantine fault; we've had several internet wide ntp-giving-wrong-time events in the last couple years. | 09:11 |
| gmaxwell | the people currently working on "securing ntp" are purely focused on it not being a dos vector / not being a remote code execution hole. | 09:12 |
| fluffypony | ah | 09:13 |
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| gmaxwell | Taek: competitions don't make sense unless you can define requirements. | 09:13 |
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| gmaxwell | Taek: lots of altcoins have made "difficulty adjustment 'improvements'" which achieved their stated goal-- e.g. adapt faster to hashrate loss-- but then lost much of their security too. | 09:15 |
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| fluffypony | I think altcoins are in a uniquely unenviable position | 09:16 |
| fluffypony | their hashrate is generally so low that attacking them is trivial for a motivated attacker | 09:16 |
| fluffypony | so fast retargets are kinda necessary | 09:17 |
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| funkenstein_ | hence 90% of new coins relying on PoS | 09:18 |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: kinda putting lipstick on a pig. | 09:18 |
| fluffypony | funkenstein_: eugh. | 09:18 |
| fluffypony | gmaxwell: word | 09:18 |
| fluffypony | but at least it's a pretty shade of red | 09:19 |
| gmaxwell | But the whole design space of "broken algorithims that can be pretended are not broken for a slightly longer span of time; but which would harm security if ever used in a non-broken space" isn't one I think is too exciting. :P | 09:19 |
| funkenstein_ | lol | 09:20 |
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| gmaxwell | I think PHC also showed contest not working so well in a place where the area wasn't super understood and with the parameters wide open... not that it wasn't useful, but that it didn't really emit a final construct. | 09:21 |
| fluffypony | so the solution is to have a contest for the best altcoin name | 09:22 |
| kanzure | how does ntp time things work? is it a certificate authority model? | 09:22 |
| fluffypony | decided by Taek and I | 09:22 |
| * kanzure looks at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5905 | 09:22 | |
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| kanzure | ok "NTPv3 symmetric key authentication scheme" | 09:23 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: huh, no there is just no security at all. you point servers at other servers and they apply some basic bad ticker exclusion and drive the clock towards a pooled average of what remains. There is some cryptographic authentication speced, but basically no one uses it with public NTP. | 09:23 |
| gmaxwell | there are two kinds of crypto, the symmetric stuff (which I've seen ISPs use between routers), and some asymetric stuff which I've never seen evidence of anyone using anywhere. | 09:24 |
| gmaxwell | and in particular, even ignoring auth-- no NTP implementation can make promises like "you'll get the correct time if at least 2/3rds of your configured trusted servers are giving the correct time". .. and I suppose it's just as well they don't since the vast majority of ntp using hosts today are just configured by pointing them at NTP pool servers that anyone can join; and which people have joine | 09:26 |
| gmaxwell | d in the past for malicious host enumeration purposes. | 09:27 |
| kanzure | "correct time" is a hard thing to define anyway | 09:27 |
| kanzure | (and having a working time protocol would probably inadvertedly convince people to assume that syncronized time is possible) | 09:27 |
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| kanzure | *synchronized time | 09:28 |
| gmaxwell | you can rewrite my comment without the word correct. (your time will be consistent with a 2/3rd quourum if one exists) | 09:28 |
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| kanzure | is 2/3rds time consensus like that, a desirable property that people should be working towards for ntp and ntp-like protocols? assuming, say, authentication being regularly used by its participants. and such. | 09:29 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: also the vast majority of stratum 1 ntp servers are clocked straight off GPS; which itself is unauthenticated and easily spoofed by a local attacker (or made wrong by its operator) | 09:29 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: dunno. I think it would be an improvement. | 09:30 |
| funkenstein_ | by monitoring a couple dozen blockchains you could make a decent clock | 09:31 |
| kanzure | oh what was the google blog post about this. they had an interesting post about how they did not-quite-ntp ntp things. | 09:31 |
| kanzure | this is maybe the post i am thinking about https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-technology-and-leaping-seconds.html | 09:31 |
| gmaxwell | funkenstein_: no, not really. | 09:32 |
| kanzure | "But this “repeated” second can be a problem. For example, what happens to write operations that happen during that second? Does email that comes in during that second get stored correctly? ... We saw some of our clustered systems stop accepting work on a small scale during the leap second in 2005, and while it didn’t affect the site or any of our data, we wanted to fix such issues once and for all." | 09:32 |
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| bsm117532 | I'm actually thinking of making a blogging series to critically review coin proposals. | 09:32 |
| funkenstein_ | gmaxwell, why not? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "The solution we came up with came to be known as the “leap smear.” We modified our internal NTP servers to gradually add a couple of milliseconds to every update, varying over a time window before the moment when the leap second actually happens. This meant that when it became time to add an extra second at midnight, our clocks had already taken this into account, by skewing the time over the course of the day. All of our servers ... | 09:33 |
| kanzure | ... were then able to continue as normal with the new year, blissfully unaware that a leap second had just occurred. We plan to use this “leap smear” technique again in the future, when new leap seconds are announced by the IERS." | 09:33 |
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| funkenstein_ | i've been considering building the thing for a while so I would love to hear it wouldn't work :) | 09:34 |
| gmaxwell | funkenstein_: because correct time in any meaninful sense isn't an important objective for any of them. They're mostly all themselves timed off NTP too (many altcoins have a patch that integrates an NTP client, in fact). | 09:34 |
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| funkenstein_ | ah ok, so if too many miners rely on their own insecure clocks, the thing would be broken on arrival | 09:35 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: yea, and then google has some public time servers that yield their goofed time, so you can be up to a half second off with everything else in the day before and after a leap second. | 09:35 |
| gmaxwell | funkenstein_: part of the problem is that for no good reason (prices) computer hardware ships with gratitiously low quality clocks. | 09:35 |
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| gmaxwell | So while you can get a 0.5ppm TCXO for like $2 or 0.2 ppm for $4 ... server motherboards have 50ppm non-temp compensated parts. ... so the time will end up gratitiously wrong unless you're actively conditioning it with ntp. | 09:40 |
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| funkenstein_ | anyway, in all its uselessness, my plan is to generate a list like "X miner said it was Y oclock a few seconds ago" | 09:42 |
| funkenstein_ | and then come up with a nice smoothing / weighting function | 09:42 |
| funkenstein_ | eventually giving estimated current universal time | 09:43 |
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| funkenstein_ | there are network latencies, etc.. it's probably harder than it sounds, and plus: nobody needs it :) | 09:44 |
| funkenstein_ | but thanks for helping me talk it over | 09:44 |
| gmaxwell | funkenstein_: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/decentralized-time.txt | 09:44 |
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| funkenstein_ | aha, thanks! i like the idea of using solar radio bursts | 09:48 |
| funkenstein_ | and i for one believe it is only failure of collaboration that makes us rely on GPS | 09:49 |
| funkenstein_ | have you written a decentralized-location-services.txt ? | 09:49 |
| bsm117532 | funkenstein_: http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/ | 09:50 |
| funkenstein_ | sweet :) | 09:51 |
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| funkenstein_ | file under meshnet plugins | 09:54 |
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| e0 | anyone managed to get bitcoind to compile with asan? | 16:56 |
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| kanzure | http://manishearth.github.io/blog/2016/03/05/exploring-zero-knowledge-proofs/ | 17:25 |
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| Taek | "New blocks in this chain are only accepted by a node if their offsets are plausible." -> this seems too subjective to be workable | 21:25 |
| Taek | though, in some systems just being able to use something like the sun to calibrate your local time might be enough | 21:25 |
| Taek | and the stars at night | 21:25 |
| Taek | I wonder how accurate you could get with some cutting-edge computer vision + a cellphone that's taking pictures of the sun. Within 10 minutes seems reasonable, maybe even under 1 minute | 21:27 |
| Taek | <gmaxwell> Taek: competitions don't make sense unless you can define requirements. | 21:28 |
| Taek | I did mean to imply that a competition would set reasonable requirements | 21:28 |
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| Taek | it was discussed in part earlier today. Quick to verify, botnet resistant, yet a home enthusiest could be reasonably within profitability of an economies-of-scale corporation | 21:29 |
| Taek | I know you've argued in the past energy-expensive algorithms are better than hardware-expensive algorithms (such as proof-of-diskspace), but hardware-expensive algorithms may benefit home enthusiests | 21:30 |
| Taek | power is expensive if you live in a city. Shipping a hardware-expensive machine to yourself may not be as expensive | 21:31 |
| Taek | especially if it does not take up much floorspace | 21:31 |
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| fluffypony | Taek: botnet resistance is impossible | 22:54 |
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| fluffypony | also I'm of the opinion that botnets don't hurt the ecosystem much - they increase hashrate, selling the mined coins increases distribution, and if they don't keep their stuff updated they get forked off the network | 22:55 |
| nsh | running a node is great. running a lot of nodes is also great | 22:57 |
| nsh | running too many nodes and trying to cheat is not great, but afaik no botnet owners have exercised such ambitions on the bitcoin network, not is it viable anymore | 22:57 |
| nsh | (controlling other people's computers without permission is nominally not-great, of course, but it's also exactly what happens to everyone's computers all day long with the exception of richard stallman) | 22:58 |
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| smooth | botnet nodes are supposedly better maintained than regular PCs | 23:01 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Mar 09 00:00:13 2016 | ||
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