| --- Log opened Wed Mar 09 00:00:13 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Wed Mar 09 2016 | ||
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| moa | http://news.slashdot.org/story/16/03/08/2347236/1-in-3-developers-fear-ai-will-replace-them light relief | 01:39 |
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| Taek | Fluffypony: Bitcoin has good botnet resistance. The need for ASICs means your 1 million node botnet is not very useful in terms of hashrate | 07:35 |
| Taek | Also, botnets are bad because of decentralization. Iirc Bitcoin used to have 1-2 dominant botnets and that was a big risk, if the botnet owners had decided to abuse their hashpower they may have been able to deal damage. | 07:36 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] why would they chose to destroy their income, thats non sense | 07:45 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] there is no economic incentive to act other than a normal pool operator | 07:46 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] prolly even better to have a ton of botnets online than 4 big pools | 07:46 |
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| kanzure | zero knowledge contingent payments could be used to do proof-of-storage (i don't mean for proof-of-work replacement), the verification program can check basic things like hashes or an encrypted message from the buyer that specifies offsets and ranges of bytes to check. | 07:56 |
| kanzure | the verification program is obfuscated, right? can you safely insert private keys into that program? | 07:57 |
| fluffypony | Taek: on the flip side, I'm not convinced that the clustering that ASICs have caused has left us in a better position than dominant botnets | 07:57 |
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| kanzure | "The possibility of secure non-secret digital encryption" (1970) http://www.gchq.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/CESG_Research_Report_No_3006.pdf | 08:17 |
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| kanzure | "The possibility of secure non-secret analogue encryption" (1970) http://www.gchq.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/CESG_Research_Report_No_3007.pdf | 08:18 |
| helo | fluffypony: it would be pretty amusing if botnets were dominant in mining, and they did a honest job at it | 08:29 |
| fluffypony | helo: well what are the incentives for them being dishonest? they want to fire and forget and just make money, they're far less capitalistic than the Bitcoin mining community | 08:30 |
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| helo | right! it could actually work okay (if they decided to mine transactions in their blocks) | 08:32 |
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| fluffypony | oh I thought you were saying "it would be pretty amusing" as in "it would be pretty improbable" | 08:34 |
| fluffypony | we've observed that they just embed cpuminer-multi or whatever in their botnet software, and point it at a pool they run | 08:35 |
| fluffypony | pool is running completely stock software | 08:35 |
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| instagibbs | i was about to say, there's no reason to believe botnets wouldn't run on a pool themselves | 08:37 |
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| helo | (if you'll pardon the subpar wizardry...) with LN fully running and heavily used, transactions on the blockchain may generally be entities "taking to chain" to resist fraud? | 09:50 |
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| helo | so to run with the legal system analogy, the network will be secured with lawyer fees | 09:50 |
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| davehoover | helo: that's my understanding of LN. channels are contracts between two parties, and hitting the blockchain is like going to court. (it should be the exception, not the rule) | 09:57 |
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| amiller | there must be other examples too where thre's an expensive but somewhat rarer circumstance, not just legal | 10:01 |
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| helo | the legal system analogy seems to be very well suited | 10:03 |
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| helo | e.g. the property that there may be a (prohibitively) high cost to seek protection | 10:13 |
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| helo | hopefully the property that the legal system can rule incorrectly doesn't correspond to LN | 10:15 |
| amiller | helo, yeah also you can get in a scenario where you need a transaction confirmed on chain before a timer expires | 10:15 |
| amiller | if that happens during a congestion period or something then that can be risky or expensive | 10:16 |
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| helo | right. there have been many more questions about LN lately, so i need to understand its potential shortcomings. thanks | 10:18 |
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| nanasho | how can i reach a dev from the blockchain.info API ? | 11:12 |
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| fluffypony | nanasho: wrong room | 11:20 |
| fluffypony | nanasho: try emailing them, or ask in #bitcoin | 11:20 |
| nanasho | did | 11:21 |
| nanasho | thx | 11:21 |
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| gmaxwell | This is relevant to my interests: http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/263.pdf log scaling ZKP in the plain discrete log security setting. Verifier wouldn't be ultrafast, but for most cryptocurrency applications-- at least ones outside of the blockchain-- it doesn't need to be. | 16:40 |
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| gmaxwell | to prove a sha1 preimage, their prover takes 6.5 seconds, generates a 4992 byte proof, which is verified in 4.3 seconds... this is via some implementation they created which is a mishmash of python/ntl/and openssl (for EC operations). | 16:50 |
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| bramc | Hey everybody | 19:34 |
| bsm1175321 | o/ | 19:34 |
| bramc | I sort of broke my pretty proof of space technique and have what I think are simple fixes. They're a little strange though. | 19:34 |
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| bramc | And I really need to learn what the actual break of the broken thing is | 19:35 |
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| bsm1175321 | You'll have to be a bit more specific. ;-) | 19:43 |
| bsm1175321 | My head is in UTXO set sharding, and proving storage and consistency of the subset you're not holding... | 19:44 |
| bramc | Well, I have this slightly goofy but sort of makes sense improvement to the 'trivial' proof of space algorithm | 19:45 |
| bramc | The trivial algorithm is that you make take a public key, hash it, and the difference between that hash and the challenge is the quality of that proof, smaller is better. | 19:46 |
| bramc | The problem is that this has time/space tradeoffs, something about repeatedly hashing things and finding ones which loop back. So my idea is to make it so that instead of coughing up one thing you have to cough up two. | 19:47 |
| bramc | So you have a public key and a size, k. In response to a challenge you need to cough up two strings of k bits such that hashing them together with the key matches the first k+3 bits of the challenge. | 19:50 |
| bramc | You can use a number other than 3 but there are tradeoffs. When the number is lower there's more advantage to collective mining. When the number is higher there's more overhead in responding to queries, because more responses fail so you need to parallelize | 19:51 |
| bramc | Although that also fights against another mild form of pooling bonus. Running the numbers, it looks like the right value is 3. | 19:52 |
| bramc | To find the quality of a successful response to the challenge, you hash together the two values you found plus the challenge and right shift it K bits. | 19:53 |
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| bramc | Again, smaller is better. | 19:55 |
| bramc | There are some small percentage improvements which can be had to this technique using cpu tradeoffs, but they're readily analyzable and small. I think it kills all the deep algorithmic tricks. | 19:56 |
| bramc | Come to think of it 3 is likely a bit aggro, maybe 2 is better, I'll have to crunch some numbers later. | 19:57 |
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| bramc | The reason for having that slop is to make it unlikely for someone who gets a hit to have several different possibilities to choose from. The tradeoff is that they often come up with nothing at all. | 19:59 |
| bramc | If an attacker happens to have three things in the bucket, they have three different ways of choosing two. If they have four things, they get twelve. That's suboptimal | 20:00 |
| bramc | That can also be fought with a slightly crazy usage of proofs of time I came up with the other day. | 20:00 |
| bsm1175321 | So you're issuing a hashcash challenge? What's the advantage of your more complex algorithm over a simpler give-me-sha256(x+challenge) such that it's < 10^-3? | 20:02 |
| bsm1175321 | Or maybe, what's your reasoning behind the more complex challenge? | 20:03 |
| bramc | I have to run. The short answer is that there's a deep algorithm I don't understand which busts the (somewhat underspecified) thing you just gave. Lots of people independently came up with that approach and it's busted. | 20:03 |
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| bsm1175321 | Would be happy to understand it if you can ref it ;-) Otherwise have a good night. | 20:04 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc: It seems to me the only difference is the difference in difficulty in generating a valid pubkey. So, for ECC this is almost nil, but for RSA may be interesting if you're draining the entropy of the challengee...but the challengee can use a PRNG and you'd never know it. | 20:08 |
| bsm1175321 | From a sharding perspective it's interesting to figure out how to get logical groupings of the sharding-space (UTXO space or address space = hash(pubkey)) to be "near" each other. e.g. my wallet lives on the same shard. I've suggested before "grinding" addresses so they all live on the same shard (are within some \epsilon of each other). | 20:10 |
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| bsm1175321 | The Ethereum sharding proposal has contracts running on a single shard, with an extra gas cost for crossing shards. This lacks any kind of proposal to get the relevant stuff on the same shard, and hopes on unicorns that other people will figure it out due to the economic incentive. | 20:16 |
| bsm1175321 | For reference: https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/53 | 20:18 |
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| bsm1175321 | Nondeterministic gas costs for calling a smart contract API seems like a losing proposition to me. | 20:21 |
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| * bsm1175321 has nightmares of x86 16-bit memory segmentation. | 20:29 | |
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| bramc | I don't find sharding very interesting, and my thoughts on actually doing it are that first of all you need a merkle root, and to get a merkle root you need an implementation that's performant, and not entirely coincidentally I'm working on exactly that. | 22:15 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 10 00:00:55 2016 | ||
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