--- Log opened Fri Mar 11 00:00:24 2016 | ||
--- Day changed Fri Mar 11 2016 | ||
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bramc | gmaxwell: The +2 might be a bit mysterious. It's there to (a) make it uncommon to have more than two in the bucket which results in multiple results to choose from and possible picking out of the one most favorable to oneself, and (b) make it so there frequently isn't any solution at all, to get rid of the advantage which a single large coordinated miner gets in always exactly covering the whole space with no collisions | 00:07 |
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bramc | The other technique of throwing in the proofs of time before you find out what the challenges are helps with the realtime cooperative mining but not with an attacker who's trying to remine since a while ago so (a) is still relevant | 00:08 |
bramc | As per usual I'm throwing in hacky techniques which have weird quirks and nasty abstraction boundary busting. But they do seem to work. | 00:09 |
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bramc | The having to cough up two responses instead of one is to make it so that the repeated hashing tricks which bust the beautiful simple but busted proof of space technique don't work any more. | 00:10 |
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bramc | Apparently everybody's gone to bed. I'm done with dense mathy commentary for the day. | 00:34 |
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shesek | with ZKCP, is there a way to have the buyer commit to the payment prior to the seller finding the solution? | 02:48 |
shesek | that is, to give the seller an assurance that if he's extending resources to find the solution and gets a valid one, the buyer can't just disappear and decide that he isn't willing to pay for the solution | 02:50 |
gmaxwell | shesek: no, not with that protocol (I mean you could escrow things externally but lose trustlessness) | 02:54 |
shesek | yeah, I figured that it could be done with a trusted party... but was hoping that there might be some trustless way to achieve that | 02:57 |
nsh | gmaxwell, what was your take on the Biryukov, Khovratovich paper on PoW from 'algorithm binding' to generalised birthday paradox from generic NP-hard problems? doesn't look like released any code, but i couldn't see any superficial reasons it wasn't a sound method in principle (not that i thought about it very hard) | 02:57 |
nsh | ( https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/946.pdf ) | 02:57 |
nsh | the claim that there is a tunable 'steepness' time-space-tradeoff is quite strong | 02:59 |
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kanzure | gmaxwell: having people accept "spv payments" is an extremely reduced security model... it's like saying "here accept my money as payment, but also, i should probably let you know that it's easy for people to steal this from you unless you're running a fu...." you know what, that argument sounds so weak that i'm surprised people aren't advocating for centralization-only instead of spv. | 05:49 |
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kanzure | libdjb / libowfat https://www.fefe.de/libowfat/ | 06:44 |
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bramc | Memory-hard problems in general suffer from (a) they have a rather large minimum amount of time to work (b) their bottleneck is probably still costs of power instead of costs of chips. | 09:18 |
bramc | That said, they're the best approach to asic resistance anyone has come up with so far. Not clear whether asic resistance is a good thing... | 09:19 |
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dgenr8 | kanzure: spv has yet to be done properly. what do you think is the most glaring vulnerability? (not considering privacy here) | 17:20 |
kanzure | i think fraud proofs are fairly vulnerable because of the lack of incentive for a miner to hand you one | 17:20 |
midnightmagic | dgenr8: lack of fraud proofs, lack of fraud proof handling, lack of proper fraud proof handling, likely difficulty of handling fraud proofs. | 17:22 |
kanzure | i suppose another vulnerability is that good fraud proofs don't even exist at the moment (even though bitcoin.pdf specifies the necessity of this) | 17:22 |
dgenr8 | fraud proofs are a bit premature imho since current spv clients don't even ask for input proofs (merkle branches). petertodd's recent presentation is an example of that | 17:23 |
kanzure | i think i can reasonably defend something like "use bitcoin by access through a third-party gateway" more than i could defend "use spv".... at least in the centralized third-party API model, you have centralized security risk and vulnerability which you can attempt to solve using human means. and this is less true for "spv"..... if you are going to be insecure and rely on human trust, you might as well use human trusted institutions ... | 17:24 |
kanzure | ... which people mostly already have experience with. | 17:24 |
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dgenr8 | i think spv is fixable. for one thing, spv clients should run over tor so information actually comes from the p2p network | 17:26 |
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maaku | dgenr8: you mean run over tor so exit nodes have full network control over what you see? | 17:26 |
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smooth | im alsoi a little stumped what tor has to do with p2p | 17:28 |
dgenr8 | maaku: that's much better than my network provider having full control over everything | 17:28 |
dgenr8 | smooth: the p2p network is on the other side of my network provider | 17:28 |
kanzure | a well-engineered bitcoin node will continue to work even if your connection becomes man-in-the-middled | 17:29 |
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smooth | that is certainly impossible | 17:29 |
smooth | dgenr8: ok i get what you meant | 17:29 |
kanzure | whole point of crypto and security is to outsmart the man-in-the-middle attacker. | 17:30 |
smooth | you can outsmart a mitm on some of your connections, but not all of them | 17:30 |
dgenr8 | one honest connection is all you need | 17:31 |
kanzure | it depends on what you mean--- if you mean "your connection was always intercepted" then yes. but if you mean "hey you once had a good channel but now you don't" then my answer is no; your client can remember previous network state and details. | 17:31 |
smooth | right but zero will not work | 17:31 |
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smooth | yes but the mitm can still always give you a recent chain fork | 17:32 |
kanzure | recent chain forks are expected though. | 17:32 |
kanzure | that's how this works... | 17:32 |
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smooth | of arbitrary length | 17:32 |
smooth | because all other blocks will be censored | 17:32 |
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midnightmagic | combination tor/ip4/ip6 gateway nodes operate as well; tor exit nodes are not the only outlet for tor-connected nodes. nor are tor-only nodes useless. | 18:44 |
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-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:00 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:01 | |
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-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
-bfxhype:#bitcoin-wizards- WAKE UP! Bitfinex just announced Ethereum support! https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=93 -- PRICE IS GOING NUTS. ATH BROKEN. | 21:05 | |
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 12 00:00:57 2016 |
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