| --- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:02 2016 | ||
| Taek | if you allow illegal beads to be merged, it makes txn fees harder to reason about, becaues the illegal txn is going to have illegal inputs, which means the fee value changes | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| bsm1175321 | I have an idea. Let me put out my paper and code as quickly as possible, and we can discuss algorithms and trade python code instead. ;-) | 00:00 |
| Taek | but if you don't allow illegal beads to be merged, you know the fee value of a txn immediately | 00:00 |
| Taek | ok. I plan on coding this up | 00:00 |
| Taek | well... that might not be ready until late summer though | 00:01 |
| bsm1175321 | Sorry, very tired and losing coherence, but thanks for an interesting chat, and let's keep talking about this. | 00:01 |
| Taek | I'd like the idea to get more traction/confirmation from other researchers as something that's worth pursuing before I dump too much time into it | 00:01 |
| bsm1175321 | If we're lucky, I'll have my paper/code out in a ~week. | 00:01 |
| Taek | so... June :P | 00:01 |
| bsm1175321 | I'd be happy to comment, but define "worth pursuing" in your terms. ;-) | 00:02 |
| bsm1175321 | June, yes, june. | 00:02 |
| Taek | "worth pursuing": people are convinced that the fundamentals of the idea could turn into something that would significantly improve *both* txn throughput and miner decentralization | 00:03 |
| Taek | even if they are not convinced that the current specification is complete (which it isn't) | 00:04 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm convinced on both points, and will hopefully convince others with a paper and code. Let's keep talking. ;-) | 00:04 |
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| bsm1175321 | However as of tonight you convinced me that per-txn mining is not doable. :-/ | 00:05 |
| bsm1175321 | (with my definition of cohorts) | 00:05 |
| bsm1175321 | ... as analogous to blocks. | 00:05 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm open to another interpretation. | 00:06 |
| Taek | and the reason you think it's not doable is because you believe that it would be too easy to cause reorgs | 00:07 |
| Taek | or beacuse you think that the network would be unable to converge on whether or not a transaction was confirmed? | 00:08 |
| Taek | I am currently convinced that neither would be a problem, but am not sure what approach to use to convince other people of this. Perhaps some sleep will help | 00:08 |
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| bsm1175321 | Taek: two reasons: two participants cannot compare UTXO sets, because there is never a common agreement point. Second, any method of imposing a total ordering on a partial ordered cohort/DAG can be gamed, because the block generation rate is much faster than the cohort/checkpoint/comparison size, so reordering is possible within the cohort. | 00:11 |
| bsm1175321 | You're correct about your statement of "twice as much work" but with respect to what? | 00:11 |
| bsm1175321 | If, within a cohort/checkpoint, 2x work is less than the total work, I can cause a reorg. | 00:12 |
| Taek | a reorg up to 2 deep | 00:14 |
| Taek | same is true with Bitcoin | 00:14 |
| bsm1175321 | Yes. | 00:14 |
| Taek | so I don't see why it's a problem? | 00:15 |
| bsm1175321 | If you slow everything down to the point that you total-order because the difficulty is so high that the propagation time is much less than the target time, you have a blockchain. | 00:16 |
| bsm1175321 | The interesting point is when the target time is similar to or less than the propagation time across the network. | 00:16 |
| Taek | yeah. the whole idea here is that you'd have 10+ different transactions in flight at the same time | 00:18 |
| Taek | *non-conflicting transactions | 00:19 |
| Taek | in the ideal situation, we've brought the orphan rate close to zero | 00:19 |
| bsm1175321 | All this is *defined* by who-sees-who-first. I'm defining a system in which I see *everyone* first and that defines a checkpoint/block | 00:19 |
| bsm1175321 | But as the tx rate goes up, that's not possible. | 00:19 |
| Taek | if there's a large backlog of transactions, miners can safely mine different transactions, and a conflict will be rare. Far less than 0.5% of all mining will be wasted to conflicts | 00:20 |
| Taek | if there is not a large backlog of transactions, I'm not sure all the same properties hold | 00:20 |
| bsm1175321 | So most reorgs today are due to the coinbase, not double-spends. | 00:21 |
| bsm1175321 | We could totally eliminate that conflict by allocating the coinbase txn 100 blocks later, rather than having the miners write it themselves. | 00:22 |
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| jonasschnelli | maaku: UTXO-set dumps: yes. There might be some usecases, though, I understand the differencences in the (no)trust-model. | 00:41 |
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| ndog_ | Is it possible to run a fork inside of a vpn restricted from internet? | 02:44 |
| ndog_ | with custom seed servers | 02:47 |
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| wumpus | yes, you could, there's no reason the code needs connection to the 'real' internet. Though for such an experiment it may make more sense to disable using the seed servers, and use addnode yourself. | 04:24 |
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| testnet | hello all can anyone help me with an issue I have mining using testnet | 05:08 |
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| wumpus | testnet: wrong channel | 05:10 |
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| wumpus | try #bitcoin | 05:10 |
| testnet | ok thanks | 05:11 |
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| kanzure | what was the result regarding prime numbers and the frequency of their first digits when looking at base 3? where did that paper go? | 06:37 |
| proslogion | christ there's such a thing? | 06:38 |
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| nsh | .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.03720 | 06:41 |
| yoleaux | [1603.03720] Unexpected biases in the distribution of consecutive primes | 06:41 |
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| nsh | (i would have expected biases but i'm probably just cynical) | 06:42 |
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| MoALTz | markov chain analysis on the last digits in various bases seems like something that should have been done long ago | 07:03 |
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| kanzure | "you can hide unverified code behind verified firewalls and be mostly OK" http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-March/028668.html | 07:35 |
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| bramc | Going back to the scroll from about a half day ago: Immediately after a work difficulty reset the harder chain will beat the easier chain. This gives an advantage to whoever makes their chain marginally harder to mine because it will tend to win tiebreaks, just so long as the marginal increase in difficulty they make is less than the orphan rate | 09:03 |
| bramc | If you can do a hard fork, a prudent thing to do would be to make the work difficulty reset not kick in until some number of blocks after it's measured. | 09:03 |
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| Taek | bramc: or you could set up some threshold. e.g., you won't switch to a heavier chain unless it's at least X work heavier, where X is nontrivial (say, 3 minutes of network hashrate) | 10:51 |
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| maaku | MoALTz people don't look where they don't expect to find anything | 11:10 |
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| bramc | For anyone who missed it before: I'm looking for feedback on my extremely early draft BIP: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bramcohen/NotValidAfter/master/Transaction_expirations.txt | 11:48 |
| bramc | Particularly interested in feedback about a possible SPV extension | 11:48 |
| kanzure | bitcoin-dev mailing list is also a good place to ask for bip draft feedback | 11:50 |
| bramc | kanzure: I'm planning on doing that, but would like some more feedback first | 11:51 |
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| FakeSatoshi | Will BIP142 segwit addresses be deployed? Can base64 and use of longer 192bit hash like Tiger be considered? | 17:42 |
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| Taek | #bitcoin-dev | 17:44 |
| FakeSatoshi | Taek: thanks | 17:45 |
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| dgenr8 | bramc: Serving input proofs to SPV clients is a grand idea, and not just for this use case | 21:28 |
| dgenr8 | I think optional expiration time/height is a good idea and not merely transactions, but scriptPubKeys should be capable of expiration. The expiration could be visible in the address. | 21:29 |
| dgenr8 | By use of CLTV, these expiring scripts could have a limited total lifetime, which would enable efficient prevention of address reuse. | 21:30 |
| dgenr8 | eg an address like 4HB5ld0FzFVj8ALj6mfBsbifRoD4miY36v_1_2016-03-18 could be recognizeable as a 1-day address expiring on 2016-03-18 with a "danger period" extending through blocktime = 2016-03-21-00:00:00 | 21:30 |
| adlai | why not use 'vanity' for the recognizability? | 21:31 |
| adlai | your example was uglier than self-reference | 21:31 |
| c0rw1n | told you :D | 21:32 |
| c0rw1n | oh sry wrong window ._. | 21:32 |
| zooko | Related: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/718 | 21:33 |
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