2016-03-17.log

--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:02 2016
Taekif you allow illegal beads to be merged, it makes txn fees harder to reason about, becaues the illegal txn is going to have illegal inputs, which means the fee value changes00:00
bsm1175321I have an idea.  Let me put out my paper and code as quickly as possible, and we can discuss algorithms and trade python code instead.  ;-)00:00
Taekbut if you don't allow illegal beads to be merged, you know the fee value of a txn immediately00:00
Taekok. I plan on coding this up00:00
Taekwell... that might not be ready until late summer though00:01
bsm1175321Sorry, very tired and losing coherence, but thanks for an interesting chat, and let's keep talking about this.00:01
TaekI'd like the idea to get more traction/confirmation from other researchers as something that's worth pursuing before I dump too much time into it00:01
bsm1175321If we're lucky, I'll have my paper/code out in a ~week.00:01
Taekso... June :P00:01
bsm1175321I'd be happy to comment, but define "worth pursuing" in your terms.  ;-)00:02
bsm1175321June, yes, june.00:02
Taek"worth pursuing": people are convinced that the fundamentals of the idea could turn into something that would significantly improve *both* txn throughput and miner decentralization00:03
Taekeven if they are not convinced that the current specification is complete (which it isn't)00:04
bsm1175321I'm convinced on both points, and will hopefully convince others with a paper and code.  Let's keep talking. ;-)00:04
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bsm1175321However as of tonight you convinced me that per-txn mining is not doable.  :-/00:05
bsm1175321(with my definition of cohorts)00:05
bsm1175321... as analogous to blocks.00:05
bsm1175321I'm open to another interpretation.00:06
Taekand the reason you think it's not doable is because you believe that it would be too easy to cause reorgs00:07
Taekor beacuse you think that the network would be unable to converge on whether or not a transaction was confirmed?00:08
TaekI am currently convinced that neither would be a problem, but am not sure what approach to use to convince other people of this. Perhaps some sleep  will help00:08
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bsm1175321Taek: two reasons: two participants cannot compare UTXO sets, because there is never a common agreement point.  Second, any method of imposing a total ordering on a partial ordered cohort/DAG can be gamed, because the block generation rate is much faster than the cohort/checkpoint/comparison size, so reordering is possible within the cohort.00:11
bsm1175321You're correct about your statement of "twice as much work" but with respect to what?00:11
bsm1175321If, within a cohort/checkpoint, 2x work is less than the total work, I can cause a reorg.00:12
Taeka reorg up to 2 deep00:14
Taeksame is true with Bitcoin00:14
bsm1175321Yes.00:14
Taekso I don't see why it's a problem?00:15
bsm1175321If you slow everything down to the point that you total-order because the difficulty is so high that the propagation time is much less than the target time, you have a blockchain.00:16
bsm1175321The interesting point is when the target time is similar to or less than the propagation time across the network.00:16
Taekyeah. the whole idea here is that you'd have 10+ different transactions in flight at the same time00:18
Taek*non-conflicting transactions00:19
Taekin the ideal situation, we've brought the orphan rate close to zero00:19
bsm1175321All this is *defined* by who-sees-who-first.  I'm defining a system in which I see *everyone* first and that defines a checkpoint/block00:19
bsm1175321But as the tx rate goes up, that's not possible.00:19
Taekif there's a large backlog of transactions, miners can safely mine different transactions, and a conflict will be rare. Far less than 0.5% of all mining will be wasted to conflicts00:20
Taekif there is not a large backlog of transactions, I'm not sure all the same properties hold00:20
bsm1175321So most reorgs today are due to the coinbase, not double-spends.00:21
bsm1175321We could totally eliminate that conflict by allocating the coinbase txn 100 blocks later, rather than having the miners write it themselves.00:22
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jonasschnellimaaku: UTXO-set dumps: yes. There might be some usecases, though, I understand the differencences in the (no)trust-model.00:41
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ndog_Is it possible to run a fork inside of a vpn restricted from internet?02:44
ndog_with custom seed servers02:47
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wumpusyes, you could, there's no reason the code needs connection to the 'real' internet. Though for such an experiment it may make more sense to disable using the seed servers, and use addnode yourself.04:24
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testnethello all can anyone help me with an issue I have mining using testnet05:08
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wumpustestnet: wrong channel05:10
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wumpustry #bitcoin05:10
testnetok thanks05:11
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kanzurewhat was the result regarding prime numbers and the frequency of their first digits when looking at base 3? where did that paper go?06:37
proslogionchrist there's such a thing?06:38
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nsh.title http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.0372006:41
yoleaux[1603.03720] Unexpected biases in the distribution of consecutive primes06:41
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nsh(i would have expected biases but i'm probably just cynical)06:42
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MoALTzmarkov chain analysis on the last digits in various bases seems like something that should have been done long ago07:03
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kanzure"you can hide unverified code behind verified firewalls and be mostly OK" http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-March/028668.html07:35
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bramcGoing back to the scroll from about a half day ago: Immediately after a work difficulty reset the harder chain will beat the easier chain. This gives an advantage to whoever makes their chain marginally harder to mine because it will tend to win tiebreaks, just so long as the marginal increase in difficulty they make is less than the orphan rate09:03
bramcIf you can do a hard fork, a prudent thing to do would be to make the work difficulty reset not kick in until some number of blocks after it's measured.09:03
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Taekbramc: or you could set up some threshold. e.g., you won't switch to a heavier chain unless it's at least X work heavier, where X is nontrivial (say, 3 minutes of network hashrate)10:51
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maakuMoALTz people don't look where they don't expect to find anything11:10
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bramcFor anyone who missed it before: I'm looking for feedback on my extremely early draft BIP: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bramcohen/NotValidAfter/master/Transaction_expirations.txt11:48
bramcParticularly interested in feedback about a possible SPV extension11:48
kanzurebitcoin-dev mailing list is also a good place to ask for bip draft feedback11:50
bramckanzure: I'm planning on doing that, but would like some more feedback first11:51
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FakeSatoshiWill BIP142 segwit addresses be deployed? Can base64 and use of longer 192bit hash like Tiger be considered?17:42
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Taek#bitcoin-dev17:44
FakeSatoshiTaek: thanks17:45
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dgenr8bramc: Serving input proofs to SPV clients is a grand idea, and not just for this use case21:28
dgenr8I think optional expiration time/height is a good idea and not merely transactions, but scriptPubKeys should be capable of expiration.  The expiration could be visible in the address.21:29
dgenr8By use of CLTV, these expiring scripts could have a limited total lifetime, which would enable efficient prevention of address reuse.21:30
dgenr8eg an address like 4HB5ld0FzFVj8ALj6mfBsbifRoD4miY36v_1_2016-03-18 could be recognizeable as a 1-day address expiring on 2016-03-18 with a "danger period" extending through blocktime = 2016-03-21-00:00:0021:30
adlaiwhy not use 'vanity' for the recognizability?21:31
adlaiyour example was uglier than self-reference21:31
c0rw1ntold you :D21:32
c0rw1noh sry wrong window ._.21:32
zookoRelated: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/71821:33
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