2016-03-19.log

--- Log opened Sat Mar 19 00:00:04 2016
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TheIdeaI've just come up with a proof of "existance" for my project. I have no clue how this could be expressed as code.04:29
TheIdeaI base it on how I belive reality works04:29
TheIdeawhen a user joins the system value of X coins are created and then spread to all user equally04:30
TheIdeabut their existance is bound to the existance of the user04:30
TheIdeaif that user is removed for whatever reason04:30
TheIdeathe coins are removed04:31
TheIdeathe users existance is only approved if other users acknowledge the user existance04:31
TheIdeais this something?04:32
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fluffyponyTheIdea: easy to Sybil attack, just create thousands of sock-puppet accounts all verifying each other04:37
TheIdeayou forget the approving of others04:42
TheIdeaif it is a fake account it is blocked04:42
TheIdearemoved the cones have no value ar non existant04:42
TheIdeacoins04:42
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TheIdeathere is a human component that makes sure that doesnt happen04:46
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TheIdeathere is a proof of work component but the difference is that it's kind of a users profile things he has done that make people want to aknowledge his existance04:51
TheIdea+c04:51
nshthe existence and uniqueness and consistent tracking of human actors is not the purview of the network04:52
nshi think it would be both very hard to make it so, and almost certainly counterproductive to other objectives of the network04:52
nshbut it'd be interesting to be wrong about that04:52
TheIdeawould have to be tested04:52
TheIdeait could start of in an test environment04:53
TheIdealike game04:53
nshfeel free to write up the notes for the idea somewhere in fully-formed sentences that you can link to :)04:53
TheIdeaoff04:53
nshnot one word at a time on irc please04:53
TheIdeaI have04:53
TheIdeaoh not here sec04:53
TheIdeahttp://sandboiler.tigrimigri.com/04:54
nshty04:54
TheIdeasry Im bad at writing04:54
TheIdeascatterbrain XD04:54
fluffyponyTheIdea: doesn't matter about "the others"04:57
fluffyponyI am a real person04:57
fluffyponyI can collude with nsh and a few others to approve a bunch of fake accounts04:57
nshi already started colluding by myself in the hopes you're say that04:58
nsh*you'd04:58
fluffyponythere we go04:58
TheIdeayes but then you just have a bunch of accounts05:09
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TheIdeayou still need to create content and make other bleive that what you did is genuine05:09
TheIdeabelieve05:09
TheIdeaI still need to implement a feature currently is just reputation05:10
TheIdeabut I could call it something else05:10
TheIdeaeven if you collaborate with many others it might not be enough and the work to immense and the reward too low to do so05:11
TheIdeathat's kind of what I'm trying to accomplish as protection05:12
TheIdeatoo05:12
fluffyponycontent creation is easy, you can just run articles through a spinner05:12
fluffyponyand remember, there's this army of sockpuppets that will approve the content05:13
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fluffyponyTheIdea: I think spend some time understanding what a Sybil attack is and how it relates to your idea05:14
fluffyponybarriers to entry like "must create content" or "other people in the network must approve" are trivially overcome05:14
TheIdeayes I will05:15
TheIdeaeven if they are overcome if found out the account is removed and needs to user hast to start over05:16
TheIdea-needs05:16
TheIdea-t05:16
TheIdeaa ground concept is that it is dynamically changable to addapt to corruption attepts05:17
TheIdeabut resticted to the users approval05:17
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TheIdeawell but since original creator(s) are always accredited that is found out at some point05:20
TheIdeaand since the votes are dynamically changeable one can get kicked out05:20
TheIdeaif someone creates fake content and people love that fake content he deserves a good reputation05:22
TheIdeawith the risk that if found out he looses all of it05:22
nshi think you need to start with technical reality and word towards positive feelygoody system properties, not the other way around05:22
nsh*work05:23
TheIdeaI'm sorry I dont follow05:23
nshbecause mathematics is only really plastic/malleable to a certain extent05:23
nshyou may have desired properties that simply cannot be trivially achieved or cannot be achieved at all given certain unchangable facts05:23
nshsuch as that the system is decentralised, without a hierarchical trust structure, must be resistant to DoS and spam, has to avoid generation of specially empowered groups where possible, etc.05:24
nshall of these things constrain what is possible to an incredible extent05:24
TheIdeatrue05:24
TheIdeabut it has a dynamic hirachical structure05:25
TheIdea+e05:25
nshas an analogy, you can design engines neglecting the unavoidable laws of thermodynamics05:25
nshbut history shows that people tend to entertain all kinds of unphysical ambitions when they do so, and dream up endless variations on impossible perpetual motion devices05:25
nshand that's just one thing that people should have known was impossible for centuries before a consensus emerged on why exactly05:26
nshand how exactly why it's impossible constructively helps make engines and mechanical devices that are possible, and make the more efficient, and make them more resiliant05:26
nsh*them05:26
nshor as sherlock would put it, you first must eliminate the impossible05:27
nsh(the complementary moral hazard there is that sometimes conversely impossibility is asssumed when with a clever weakening of requirements, possibility emerges. which is what happened with bitcoin itself and the byzantine general's problem)05:28
TheIdeaI don't believe in impossibilities only in a lack of understanding and thus defining it as impossibility05:28
nshgroovy :)05:28
TheIdeaI'm aware that my project has big problems05:29
TheIdeathat's whyt I'm trying to talk about it05:29
TheIdea-t05:29
* nsh nods05:30
TheIdeachange it evolve it find others to work together on it05:30
TheIdeait's nothing I'd make alone05:30
TheIdeabut I think it is the right direction05:30
TheIdeato a global problem05:30
nshmaybe try aiming for something you can make alone. when that can be demonstrated to have value, then it is more likely that collaborators will be drawn to work on it05:31
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TheIdeaone that threatens humanitys survival05:31
nshaiming for the moon is very ambitious05:31
TheIdeawell I don't think Im alone05:31
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TheIdeaI just have to fid a way to get ppl interested05:31
TheIdeafind05:31
nshinterest doesn't solve problems, understanding does05:32
TheIdeabut interest give motivation05:32
nshpeople have been interested in not being hungry for 100 billion years, that didn't invent fertilizers05:32
nshit took people being systematic in the explanation and testing of reality05:32
TheIdeaand motivation to understand things05:32
nshan tonne of motivation is not worth an gram of rigour05:33
nsh:)05:33
TheIdeamotivation is the origin of everything05:33
nshwell, not we're talking philosophy and off-topic. good luck :)05:33
nsh*now05:34
TheIdeasry05:34
TheIdeaI tend to do that05:34
TheIdeamy thought a very jumpy05:34
TheIdea+s05:34
TheIdeaI'm kind of not interested in anything I can do alone05:35
TheIdeaone person cannot safe humanity from destrying itself05:35
TheIdea+o05:35
nshone may not be able to bail out the ship alone, but one can start by making a strong effort to understand buckets :)05:38
TheIdeaWell Im already doing that05:39
TheIdeaI'm sadly not very fast05:39
TheIdeaand easily misunderstood when conveying information05:40
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TheIdeaI've been told that my system is weak against sybil attacks before and thus have looked them up but I kind of fail to see why. Either because I lack knowledge or because I can't describe my sytem well or both.05:42
TheIdeaI'll harder to understand though05:42
TheIdeasome pointers would be nice though05:43
TheIdea+work05:43
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fluffyponyTheIdea: "if found out the account is removed" - who removes it?06:21
fluffyponyor more bluntly: who is the policeman that decides on the removal?06:21
fluffyponybecause there's your central point of failure already06:22
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TheIdeait's solved like in real live ppl are voted into a postion and bound by a contract07:59
TheIdealife07:59
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TheIdeaIll be afk for a while08:03
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fluffyponyTheIdea: voting in "real life" only works because the people are physically present08:14
fluffyponyand even then you can still Sybil attack voting systems by having someone present themselves with a fake ID document08:15
fluffyponyvoting in decentralised systems simply doesn't work, as you have no way of verifying whether the person sitting behind the screen is a real person or not08:15
TheIdeaI'll have to visualize my system next08:16
TheIdeait's hard to explain how everything works together08:16
fluffyponyabout the closest application we have that tried to prove existence was PGP / GPG08:16
fluffyponywhere creating identities is free, but you aren't trusted by default08:16
TheIdeayea my system is similar08:17
fluffyponyyou need to meet someone face-to-face and they would physically sign your key08:17
fluffyponyso you know what happened08:17
fluffyponywe used to have "key signing parties"08:17
TheIdeawith an  proof of work and vouching08:17
fluffyponyin the 9008:17
fluffypony*90s08:17
fluffyponywhen we thought we were cool08:17
fluffyponyhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Keysigning_party.jpg08:17
TheIdealol nice08:18
fluffyponypeople would stop verifying documents after a few beers, and would sign everyone's key08:18
fluffyponythe entire thing fell apart and is now basically useless for verifying identity08:18
fluffypony(verifying real-world identity, I mean)08:18
TheIdeatahts why I implement work of proof08:18
TheIdeaI jsut don;t like how bitcoin does it08:19
fluffyponyproof of work doesn't prevent anything08:19
fluffyponyyou're conflating two mechanisms08:19
TheIdeabut it gives credibility08:19
fluffyponyno it doesn't08:19
TheIdeawhy not?08:19
fluffyponyit makes it expensive for a malicious system to attack another system08:19
fluffyponyit doesn't prevent humans from being bought or beaten or tricked into doing something08:20
TheIdeaand gives credibility depending on the work done08:20
TheIdeathat will never be fixed08:20
fluffyponywhat work? who's doing it?08:20
TheIdeabut a better damage control can be set in place08:20
TheIdeathe user that registered08:20
TheIdeadoes the work himself08:21
TheIdealike in real life08:21
TheIdeait's not like the blockchain08:21
fluffyponyyou've suggested content creation, but that's trivially cheated08:21
fluffyponybesides08:21
fluffyponylet's say the work is truly hard08:21
fluffyponylike "tow a tractor from Cape Town to Johannesburg"08:22
fluffyponyall I do is go to some people in Johannesburg and pay them $100 each to verify that I did the work08:22
TheIdeasure and if found out the whole network is discredited08:22
fluffyponythe system won't know that I've done that, because I pay them out-of-band08:22
fluffyponyhow would you find out?08:23
TheIdeagood question08:23
fluffyponyand, too, by the time I've scammed everyone out of thousands of $ do I really care?08:23
TheIdeathat depends08:23
TheIdeayou might need a proof of identity to trade with ppl08:24
fluffyponythere will always be people that can be bought off, and people will die and I can take their identity over08:24
TheIdeayes08:24
TheIdeait it will always happen08:25
TheIdeaand08:25
TheIdeathat's why I try to create a dyunamically changable system08:25
TheIdea-u08:25
fluffyponyso then it's centralised08:25
TheIdeathat adapts to attacks08:25
TheIdeanope it's an decentralized sytem that adapts08:26
TheIdeabut inside the sytem there is space for centralized sytems08:26
fluffyponyso everyone has to be in agreement within this decentralised system08:26
TheIdeayes08:26
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TheIdeaor at least >50%08:26
fluffypony50% of the nodes?08:27
TheIdeawith failsafe that a user needs to understand the risks of a change08:27
TheIdeano 50% of the users08:27
fluffyponyso then I just create thousands of fake accounts08:27
fluffyponyand we refuse your changes08:27
TheIdeayou can't08:27
TheIdeacant08:28
fluffyponyof course I can08:28
TheIdeaaccount creation is slow08:28
fluffyponyI will go pay people out of band to verify my accounts08:28
TheIdeaand has many hurdels to the point that it is not rentable08:28
fluffyponyand then I will own more than 50% of the accounts08:28
fluffyponyand those accounts will verify new accounts I create08:28
fluffyponyI can do that at a faster rate than legitimate people will sign up08:28
fluffyponyand I will trick legitimate people into verifying things08:29
fluffyponythrough phishing attacks and simple forgetfulness08:29
TheIdealike i said Ill have to visualize this08:29
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fluffyponyI will constantly be more than 80% of the userbase, and I will reject all adaptations to prevent the attacks08:29
TheIdeanot really08:30
TheIdeayou can't have that many positionbs08:30
TheIdeab08:30
fluffyponyof course I can, what prevents it?08:30
fluffyponynothing you've suggested thus far prevents me from growing my sock-puppet base faster than legitimate users are onboarded08:30
TheIdeaIll list the hurdles08:30
TheIdeaits in my docs and I'll have to visualize it08:31
TheIdeafirst of all simple bot check, then X ammount of users are rendomly notified that a new user wants to join08:31
TheIdeausers can decline or accept to interview the new user08:32
TheIdeaif they accept they will be rewarded by the sytem08:32
fluffyponywhat's your acceptance threshold - 10 interviews?08:32
TheIdeabut vouch with their own reputation08:32
TheIdeamaybe depends on what the community decides on08:32
fluffypony(also as an aside, I'd like to point out that the harder it is to get onto a system the less likely that it's ever used by anybody)08:33
TheIdeathen you have empty accounts that have 0 influence08:33
fluffyponyso I go find people with influence and buy them off, or just beat a few of them with a pole so that they "interview" my new account08:33
TheIdeathats the good thing it's doesn;t have to its dynamically changable08:33
TheIdea+e08:34
TheIdeathey cant they are randomly chosen08:34
TheIdeaworldwide08:34
fluffyponywell at the begining you only have 5 people on08:34
fluffyponyand I'm creating my sock puppets from the beginning08:34
TheIdeayou'll be foud out fast then08:35
TheIdeafound08:35
fluffyponyhow, I can easily run 3 accounts in parallel08:35
fluffyponywith different writing styles, and lots of content creation08:35
TheIdeabut you still need to create that proof of work08:35
TheIdeaand get that validated08:35
fluffyponyso I use Fiverr for that08:35
fluffyponyI can manage hundreds of accounts just by offloading the work08:35
TheIdeajsut because you add work it doesn't mean taht it get validated08:36
TheIdeayou need to ad proof and gain vouchers08:36
fluffyponymy work is genuine08:36
TheIdeaadd08:36
fluffyponyso I'll be adding proof08:36
fluffyponyand gaining vouchers08:36
fluffyponyI'm just not the one actually doing the work08:37
TheIdeataht ok the sytem as groups08:37
TheIdeahas08:37
TheIdeayou dont have to08:37
TheIdeaif they accept that you own that work08:37
TheIdeabut you'll be trouble if they join the system and give proof that you were scamming08:38
TheIdeain08:38
fluffyponywhat proof can they possibly give08:38
fluffyponyI have a basement with 20 labourers locked inside, who do all the work for me08:38
TheIdeathe same proof that is accepted by courts08:39
TheIdeawe are nearing Schrödinger's cat08:40
fluffyponyno we're not08:40
fluffyponynot by a long shot08:40
fluffyponyyou're designing a system that presumes millions of users08:41
TheIdeanobody will know if you have 20 ppl working for you in the basement until someone finds out08:41
fluffyponynobody will find out08:41
TheIdeait is your work then08:41
TheIdeaand nobody can do anything against that08:41
fluffyponywell, me and my 15 sock puppet accounts08:41
TheIdeanot in my sytem nor in another08:41
fluffyponyand I can scale it up from there08:41
TheIdea+s08:41
TheIdeabut those accounts are not human08:42
fluffyponyprove it08:42
fluffyponyyou give them a work challenge, they deliver08:42
fluffyponythey produce content08:42
TheIdeathey only create the work you created08:42
fluffyponythey interact with other people08:42
fluffyponyto all intents and purposes they appear to be legitimate people08:42
TaekHuman as defined how? Once you have enough Sybils, the Sybil accounts can decide what counts as human. Suddenly, they are deciding that legit humans are actually fake. And then they get a stranglehold08:42
TheIdeayou will have created an ai that is consicious then08:43
TheIdeaI would count it as a legitimate human beeing08:43
fluffyponyit's not an AI at all08:43
fluffyponyit's some automation, but mostly cheap manual labour08:43
fluffyponyMechanical Turk08:43
TheIdeawhere is the interaction?08:44
fluffyponyI farm the interaction off08:44
TheIdeafrom other users?08:44
fluffyponyno, my basement with 20 people locked inside08:44
TheIdeayou  are confusing me are the 20 people in the basement real people or bots?08:45
fluffyponyreal people08:45
fluffyponythat control 5000 accounts08:45
fluffyponywith the help of automation08:45
TheIdeathat will be very hard work to create blievable accounts08:46
TheIdeaand one mistake and the whole network is removed08:46
fluffyponynonsense, every conversation is real08:47
fluffyponyand those 5000 accounts don't all trust each other08:47
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fluffyponythey're thinly connected, but they have connections with real people outside of the network08:47
TheIdeabetween 10 users? Using 5000 accounts how?08:47
fluffyponyhow often do you think prolific Redditors use the site?08:47
TheIdeaeven if you mix in real people08:47
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TaekTheIdea: the problem is that you've defined this concept of 'human' without fully specifying how to tell whether something is human.08:48
fluffyponyyou can average it out to 10 minutes a day, and with the right leverage you can appear to be a prolific Redditor08:48
TaekAnd more importantly, you haven't considered all the ways that it can be cheated08:48
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fluffyponyso if my 20 people work 8 hours a day, they can appear to be 1000 people08:48
TheIdeathat's why Im discussing it08:48
Taekinstead of hand-waving, try to come up with something exact, that would know how to code up, and then ask yourself, if I was trying to cheat the system, what are the things I could do?08:48
TheIdeathat would take years if I had to do that alone08:49
TheIdeaprobably 5 to 1008:49
TaekTheIdea: it would probably take years even if you had help08:49
TheIdeaat least Id have help from smart ppl then08:50
TheIdeaI'm kinda still not convinced that my system would be that easy to trick08:50
TheIdeaI'll have to think hard about this08:51
Taek(except, we are telling you that the idea won't work no matter how many years you put into it)08:51
TheIdeathats why its dynamic08:51
TheIdeaand can be changed08:51
TheIdeathere is an answer it just hasn't been found yet08:51
Taekthat is not a solution lol08:51
fluffyponylol08:51
TheIdeawhy not?08:51
TheIdealife itself works that way08:52
TheIdeawe procreate and our offsprings adapt to the environment08:52
fluffyponybecause people are physically present!!08:52
fluffyponylife works because it's outside of the Internet08:52
fluffyponyyou can't replicate that online precisely because of Sybil attacks08:53
Taeklife has a very robust foundation08:53
TheIdeaand we can use the concept to recreate something that might work on the www08:53
fluffyponyTheIdea: I want to ask you something - do you think you're the first person to try and do that?08:53
TheIdeawell as last resort everyone could just be indentified08:53
Taekhave you tried cutting yourself? You heal pretty quickly because there are 10,000,000 things working together to make sure you can survive something like a cut08:53
Taekhave you tried pulling a function out of a codebase? Disaster! Modern code isn't self healing08:54
TheIdeathat shouldn't stop us from trying to create it08:54
TheIdeahopefully many08:54
TaekTheIdea: well, now you've found yourself a project that's much more ambitious than your original idea08:54
TheIdeadid I?08:54
Taeklol yes, robust code is not easy to write, especially if you are expecting it to adapt to its environment08:55
TheIdeaIm not08:55
TheIdeathats the job of the devs08:55
TheIdeacode doesnt write itself08:55
Taekuh, and the devs don't work for free?08:56
TheIdeanope they get paid by the sytem08:56
TheIdeaif they want to08:56
Taekthat would imply that 'the system' has been built08:56
TheIdeayes08:56
Taekwho pays the devs to build the system?08:56
TheIdeathose that want the sytem to be created08:56
Taekso you :P08:56
TheIdeaand those that decide to create the system08:57
TheIdeait's not something I'm gonna create if Im alone with this08:57
TheIdeaI want to it to evolve08:57
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TheIdeaday by day it's taking on a better shape08:58
TheIdeayou guys are a huge influence08:58
TheIdeathx a lot08:58
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Taekyou are welcome, but for what it's worth I think you should spend a lot more time researching adversarial systems, byzantine systems, and the various types of attacks that exist08:59
TheIdeaI will08:59
TheIdeait's noted and will be researched09:00
Taek+109:00
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TheIdea^-^09:00
fluffyponyand Nash equilibrium09:00
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TheIdeaNext step is gonna be that visualisation09:03
TheIdeathat will hopefully help to understand and shape the sytem into something usefull09:04
bsm1175321Theldea: I think tying meatspace-identity to network identity is ultimately counterproductive.  There are lots of good reasons for each human to have multiple network identities and accounts: software agents, corporations, risk mitigation, etc.09:09
bsm1175321Most of us have multiple email accounts, one for spammy usage and one for real usage, for instance.  This kind of separation is good and necessary on any network.09:10
TheIdeayou can still have different accounts in my system09:11
bsm1175321In a financial context, there's no reason for me to reveal my investments through my coffee purchasing habits, for instance.09:11
TaekI'm personally of the opinion that a strong decentralized identity/reputation system would be a fantastic thing, but I also think that there's absolutely no reason that an identity should be pegged to something in meatspace. Whether or not a thing is human doesn't matter if it is legitimately enriching your life09:11
TheIdeaalso the profile is just a space to link to other systems09:12
TheIdeait won;t replace email etc.09:12
Taekbut I also think that we are not very close to reliable decentralized reputation09:12
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TheIdeajsut tun parallel to that09:12
bsm1175321What about a software agent, that legitimately acts on behalf of multiple people?09:12
bsm1175321Frankly, being identified in meatspace is a serious risk, and I generally seek to avoid it in (some of) my online interactoins.09:13
TheIdearun09:13
TheIdeatahts what IM trying toc reate09:13
TheIdeacreate09:13
TheIdeasomething where you can be anon but still have credibility09:14
TheIdeaok I have lots of stuff to do09:14
bsm1175321"reputation" is generally risk evaluation, and is fuzzy, probabilistic, and different people will rightfully come to different conclusions about "reputation".  Fuzzy, probabalistic things should not be represented as fact in a distributed system.09:14
TheIdeaplz let me work on the visal first09:14
TheIdeait's called reputation but its more proof of work09:15
TheIdeaIm kinda exausted09:15
TheIdealets talk another time09:15
TheIdeaI've been on it all day now09:16
Taekbsm1175321: there's no reason you'd need to represent it as fact. It might be sufficient to have a web-of-trust sort of thing were you've pegged trust values to various identities and then you can see what they think of various things09:16
TheIdea@taek that is my aim09:16
TheIdeawell Im off now I've fav the channel so Ill be around09:17
bsm1175321Taek: it may not be in a person's interest to allow aggregation of such information about himself.09:17
TheIdeaI'd love to talk more about this soon09:17
bsm1175321And it's a risk if adversaries can see it.09:18
Taekyou have to share information at some point09:18
Taekit's how socialzation works09:18
TheIdeadamn it09:19
TheIdeayou can choose who you share waht  informatio with09:19
TheIdeait's not viewable by everyone09:19
TaekTheIdea: this channel is logged you can always read the stuff you've missed09:19
TheIdeait more about em participating09:19
TheIdeame09:19
TheIdeaXD09:19
bsm1175321I'm actually working on an "identity" system.  It does have such attestations, but it's up to the target/person the attestation is about to prove that the attestation is true and applies to them, if that's in their interest.09:20
bsm1175321e.g. demonstrating a letter of credit from your bank vs. indiscriminate data aggregation by "credit agencies".09:20
bsm1175321I'd like to destroy the latter, but the former is necessary.09:21
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TheIdeaI just realized what if the reputation is group based09:42
TheIdeaThat is doesn't work in the root system09:42
TheIdeait09:42
TheIdeait09:43
TheIdeabut then you would have to choose starting group and be bound to it09:44
TheIdeamaybe just as an option09:44
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fluffyponyoh so like default trust on Bitcointalk09:52
fluffyponybecause that worked so well09:52
fluffypony:-P09:52
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waxwingso with a schnorr M of M, imagining it scaling to large M in a bitcoin context; you'd still need to publish all the pubkeys wouldn't you?10:34
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waxwingor ... hmm, you consider the 'pubkey' as the sum of pubkeys? somehow that confuses me in terms of implementation. but, i guess it works..10:36
Elielwaxwing: yes, the pubkey in the tx will be a sum of the actual pubkeys.10:43
waxwingEliel: yes it changes the model a bit, i'm just watching the vid on this topic from gmaxwell and he's pointing out that it removes accountability. a lot of fiddly subtle details here.10:44
Elielwaxwing: yes, there's a lot of subtlety involved.10:45
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waxwingalso in the slides it says "direct Schnorr requires an additional round to agree on the nonce either at sign time or in advance"; i don't understand this - each party can send their nonce point to the next, surely (along with their sig value)?10:50
waxwingfrom https://people.xiph.org/~greg/gmaxwell_sfbitcoin_2015_04_20.pdf (slide 19 i think)10:51
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maakuwaxwing: it's not safe to sign until everyone else has committed to a nonce11:18
maakubecause the public key i could be advertizing is (p & -q)11:18
maakuer, p + -q11:19
maakuif p is one I have and q is one you have11:19
maakuhence the intermediate step of signing your nonce, which proves you have the secrets which compose your public key11:21
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waxwingmaaku: thanks, i see. you could effectively remove the need for someone's permission by literally cancelling them for the equation. so one extra round trip, which is quite an annoyance.11:31
waxwingi guess it would be different if they were long term attested-to pubkeys? but then that's not the bitcoin scenario.11:31
johnwhittonHi all, here’s a process question I’m trying to understand11:38
waxwingi think the reason this construction interests me so much is that it feels wrong intuitively that you can get effectively infinite scaling with no space cost. so something wrong with my intuition :)11:38
johnwhittonSo I’m looking at segwit https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/01/26/segwit-benefits/ and understand that this may be a precursor for lightning networks https://lightning.network/11:40
johnwhittonWhat I’m trying to work out is who authored the segwit document and is anybody coding this right now, and if so how would it be a fork from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin11:42
johnwhittonBasically I’m trying to get an understanding of who’s working on segwit and how far along it is11:42
fluffyponyjohnwhitton: it's been in Elements Alpha since June last year11:45
fluffyponybut as a hard fork version11:45
fluffyponyand it's been "done" and in testing since December11:45
johnwhittonThanks fluffypony and pigeons11:46
johnwhittonpigeons:  also pointed me to the #segwit-dev channel11:46
johnwhittonfluffypony: Do you have a link to the repo on gihub?11:47
fluffyponyno I don't, but #segwit-dev will be able to assist you further11:48
johnwhittonfluffypony: Thanks I’ll head over there :)11:49
fluffypony:)11:49
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nshmaaku, doesn't sipa's hash-then-add construction remove the concern of adversarial nonce choice by other parties?13:02
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maakunsh: maybe; i'm not familiar with that construction15:43
nshhttps://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/32215:43
instagibbsit's the key tree sigs trick, but seems useful here too15:44
nshhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.015:44
maakuwaxwing: well it's interactive. so the agreement happens off-chain. hopefully that helps your intuition15:44
maakuinstagibbs: "hash-then-add"? was that done in key trees?15:44
instagibbsif we're talking about the same schnorr stuff, yes15:45
nsh'This changes the combined public key to be A*H(A) + B*H(B) + C*H(C) + ..., in an attempt to prevent a pubkey cancellation vulnerability.'15:45
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instagibbsyes that15:47
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