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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} theres some unfinished yet to be further done somewhere in summer or soon(tm) research on that difficulty topic by us https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/tree/master/publications/MRL-0006%20-%20Difficulty%20Adjustment%20Algorithms%20in%20Cryptocurrency%20Protocols zooko | 00:50 |
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| fluffypony | O.o | 01:09 |
| fluffypony | zooko: I think that blog post should endeavour to provide better attribution for ZKCP | 01:10 |
| fluffypony | https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment&oldid=20089 <- November, 2011 | 01:10 |
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| r0ach | Is there any consensus in this channel of cryptocurrency being required to adhere to a certain monetary school, or can you just make up any random thing as long as it "appears to probabilistically be secure" | 09:05 |
| r0ach | as in, it's a currency, so mostly an engineering task by default, not a religion | 09:05 |
| r0ach | this post is my example for how I seem to be stuck on one monetary school with no way of altering it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414866.msg14365315#msg14365315 | 09:07 |
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| SireWolf | bitcoin is some sort of class of commodity but I dont think its a currency | 09:11 |
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| belcher | r0ach some schools of economic thought would require centralization to implement e.g. a central bank to interpret all economic data and change the money supply to keep prices stable | 09:13 |
| SireWolf | you would need an authority to provide pricing wouldnt you? | 09:13 |
| belcher | iv mostly seen the fixed money supply as the only decentralized way of doing it, it getting libertarians interested is a side effect | 09:13 |
| r0ach | my implied statement is that it's an entirely an engineering task to create a price peg, if you remove accessibility, you cripple the engineering task | 09:14 |
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| r0ach | and then you can never say 1 chicken = 1/10th a hat because it will always just be an extortion scheme | 09:15 |
| SireWolf | could we do some sort of decentralized authority, maybe handling shares and voting on the blockchain? | 09:15 |
| belcher | yes, to learn price information you need to query the real economy | 09:16 |
| belcher | even central banks dont always get it right, and they are centralized institutions with a large amount of resources at their disposal and the backing of their states | 09:16 |
| belcher | doing the same thing in a decentralized ungamable way seems impossible (but im happy to be proven wrong) | 09:17 |
| belcher | however you could make a centralized cryptocurrency that went with the keynesian or monetarist school, easily | 09:18 |
| SireWolf | well couldnt you poll shareholders for the price? | 09:18 |
| belcher | shareholders = currency holders ? | 09:18 |
| SireWolf | I dunno | 09:18 |
| belcher | "oh yes, prices are really high, please engage in monetary tightening that will make the currency more valuable" | 09:19 |
| SireWolf | but couldnt you poll people on the network and have it ask what the price is and the mean average of the poll is seen as the price? | 09:19 |
| belcher | point is they'll lie because they want their investment to get more valuable | 09:22 |
| SireWolf | so we need a decentralized marketplace that can be used to gauge the price? | 09:22 |
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| SireWolf | seems easy enough if you peg two cryptocurrencies against each other | 09:22 |
| belcher | that can be gamed by sybiling, the same entity being the buyer and seller and trading at whatever price they want | 09:22 |
| SireWolf | but thats useless | 09:22 |
| SireWolf | fees could mitigate against that | 09:22 |
| SireWolf | price fixing by trading with yourself wouldnt be free | 09:23 |
| belcher | so that is like churning, a method of market manipulation | 09:23 |
| belcher | if the manipulator owns enough currency units, their profit can be higher than the fee required | 09:23 |
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| SireWolf | an advanced AI able to gauge the price organcially thats consensus driven and distributed? | 09:25 |
| SireWolf | a trustless AI that can figure out the price without an authority the way you can? | 09:26 |
| belcher | as you're finding out, it rapidly becomes very complex | 09:26 |
| SireWolf | granted I dont think any of us can develop that or providedit the processing power tody.. | 09:26 |
| SireWolf | but would it work? | 09:26 |
| SireWolf | in any case yeah | 09:27 |
| SireWolf | that's not a simple engineering challenge | 09:27 |
| SireWolf | I like it when the implemention is the relatively easy part | 09:27 |
| SireWolf | lol | 09:27 |
| belcher | if you're going to do it for free to release an open source currency, you might as well work for central banks doing the same thing and get paid well | 09:27 |
| belcher | its essentially making an automated central bank oracle | 09:27 |
| SireWolf | well the obvious answer | 09:28 |
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| SireWolf | is to integrate the market into the currency | 09:28 |
| SireWolf | but how do you send gold to a blockchain? | 09:29 |
| SireWolf | or anything else thats stable | 09:29 |
| SireWolf | seems like you'd need to bootstrap it with a centralized currency to peg it against | 09:29 |
| belcher | you cant even premine the currency to fund development because the point is that price levels stay stable | 09:29 |
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| SireWolf | oh the price needs to fluctuate and its probably a good idea to have it go up in value, seeing as the whole crypto scene is speculative investment driven | 09:31 |
| SireWolf | financially atleast | 09:31 |
| SireWolf | but it needs to be slow and predictable | 09:31 |
| SireWolf | ya know? | 09:31 |
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| SireWolf | which... heh | 09:31 |
| SireWolf | building a coin that can manipulate its own price isnt going to be easy is it? | 09:32 |
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| SireWolf | could you bootstrap stablecoin with a centralized ecurrency? | 09:32 |
| belcher | of course, you maintain a peg | 09:33 |
| SireWolf | I mean if you had a non profit that issued digital silver citificates | 09:33 |
| belcher | it may be expensive, and you'll need to follow the law regarding AML/KYC | 09:33 |
| belcher | the swiss central bank spent billions defending its eur/chf peg, before giving up | 09:33 |
| r0ach | there actually already is a "stablecoin" fyi, which did not prove to be very stable (lol) | 09:33 |
| SireWolf | lol | 09:34 |
| SireWolf | a disaster I bet? | 09:38 |
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| zooko | fluffypony: thanks for the bug report. I patched it like so: https://z.cash/blog/science-roundup.html | 10:20 |
| fluffypony | tks | 10:20 |
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| zooko | Dear wizards: please review! https://github.com/zcash/zips/blob/master/protocol/protocol.pdf | 11:40 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} hows multisig going with zcash zooko? | 11:44 |
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| SireWolf | -othe whats zcash? | 12:00 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} check their website | 12:00 |
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| want_2o_know | Hi.I'm new to IRC so please forgive in I'm doing some newbies staff. I'm trying to learn the depth of the bitcoin system can anyone answer some question I have? | 12:19 |
| belcher | #bitcoin is a better channel for that | 12:19 |
| want_2o_know | thanks | 12:20 |
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| zooko | -othe: it has multisig, but not private multisig. https://github.com/zcash/zcash/wiki/FAQ#q-does-zcash-have-multi-signature-transactions | 12:30 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} yeah i´ve read that,we also did some multisig research | 12:36 |
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| instagibbs | zooko, could you at least to n-of-n schnorr? | 12:39 |
| zooko | instagibbs: I haven't thought much about it. I don't understand much about schnorr sigs! | 12:40 |
| zooko | instagibbs: maybe you could open a ticket on https://github.com/zcash/zcash and point the reader to the introductory explanation? | 12:40 |
| instagibbs | mostly it's just a signature that looks like 1 of 1 lemme dig up libsecp doc | 12:40 |
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| instagibbs | can't find it :/ but here's harding talking about it in general terms http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34288/what-are-the-implications-of-schnorr-signatures | 12:44 |
| waxwing | instagibbs: were you looking for this? https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/schnorrstages2/src/modules/schnorr/schnorr.md | 12:49 |
| waxwing | i found it a good summary | 12:49 |
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| instagibbs | yeah there we go! | 12:49 |
| waxwing | although there is an erratum at the end of https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/schnorrstages2/src/modules/schnorr/schnorr.md#multisigning-combine-stage-2-signatures-into-a-full-signature | 12:49 |
| waxwing | should read (R_all.x, s_all) | 12:50 |
| instagibbs | also | 12:51 |
| instagibbs | Multiply each of the Q(j) values by their hash SHA256(Q(j)). | 12:51 |
| instagibbs | Compute the sum Q_all of all Q(j) values. | 12:51 |
| instagibbs | sum of those let's call Q'(j) values | 12:51 |
| waxwing | yeah i guess. that's a kind of programmer's error x *= 2 :) | 12:52 |
| instagibbs | I mean, neither error makes sense :P | 12:53 |
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| r0ach | I have a theory that you don't understand Bitcoin unless you can define it in one sentence | 18:02 |
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| r0ach | After years, I can finally do so: | 18:03 |
| r0ach | "The purpose of mining is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system." | 18:03 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} "transferable hash-cash karma" | 18:33 |
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| kanzure | "tor 224 proposes moving hidden service addresses to full ed25519 keys rather than truncated hashes of RSA keys amongst other things" | 19:23 |
| kanzure | https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/tree/proposals/224-rend-spec-ng.txt | 19:23 |
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| bsm1175321 | 2.5 years old... :-/ | 19:24 |
| bsm1175321 | I think this has been posted here before, but it gives me pause about Curve25519: http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-March/028824.html | 19:25 |
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| bsm1175321 | In the Bitcoin space, I find myself filling a niche where I'm doing network and data analysis, and while that post gives me pause, I'm convinced of the wisdom and attention to detail of they cryptographers in the Bitcoin space (especially the libsecp256k1 authors). So I'm not so motivated to dig deeply into the curves and algorithmic comparisons. (and I hope I never will be) | 19:29 |
| bsm1175321 | Speaking of which, I'd love to see a speed comparison of ed25519 and libsecp256k1...anyone know of one? | 19:31 |
| bsm1175321 | gmaxwell claims ed25519 is not faster than libsecp256k1. But I'd love to see numbers. | 19:32 |
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| bsm1175321 | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/re_Courtois_1004.txt | 19:35 |
| * bsm1175321 invites others to ##crypto to debate the security of the two curves. I know not the answer. | 19:38 | |
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| * bsm1175321 fails in ##crypto | 20:18 | |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} that was an entertaining read | 20:25 |
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| bsm1175321 | @shen, indeed, what was your favorite part? | 20:27 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} in bold "I did not know that BitCoin is using secp256k1. | 20:30 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} I am surprised to see anybody use secp256k1 instead of secp256r1. " lol | 20:30 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} (in the linked article) | 20:31 |
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| bsm1175321 | I really feel for the NSA. It's so hard to hide your crypto-key in the parameters of other people's crypto algorithms. | 20:32 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} * facepalm | 20:36 |
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| Taek | so, was talking to some people about lightning, and a bottleneck issue came up | 22:33 |
| Taek | if you have 2 weeks (or whatever time period) to settle, there's the potential risk that some major counterparty breakdown will require a bunch of people to settle simultaneously | 22:33 |
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| Taek | potentially, more settlements needed than there are available transactions | 22:34 |
| Taek | therefore, fraud would succeed against at least some of them | 22:34 |
| Taek | to avoid this, I was thinking that you could destroy bitcoins to temporarily increase the blocksize | 22:34 |
| Taek | e.g. 25btc destroyed to increase the blocksize by 1mb for 1 block | 22:34 |
| Taek | this gives you an unsustainably expensive way to temporarily increase the block size | 22:35 |
| Taek | no miner would ever do it, and users would only do it if there was an emergency reason to get a ton of transactions though | 22:35 |
| Taek | *through | 22:35 |
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| Luke-Jr | Taek: typically the idea is to freeze maturity periods during full blocks | 22:58 |
| Taek | aren't we more or less expecting blocks to always be full? | 22:59 |
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| rusty | Luke-Jr: yeah, that's why it | 23:14 |
| rusty | Taek: yeah, that's why it's "idea" not "proposal". | 23:14 |
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| rusty | Taek: Though it's a but more subtle. It's not clear you want to immediately drop to blockchain, as failure may be transient. So it might not be such a rush... | 23:15 |
| Taek | rusty: as long as there's no failure mode where you can guarantee that there's not (in the short term) enough space for everyone to settle, it's not a huge worry for me | 23:17 |
| Taek | and, though I don't understand all the implementation details, at a high level that doesn't really seem like a difficult guarantee to provide | 23:17 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 31 00:00:15 2016 | ||
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