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| rende | Whats the best way to transmit a custom bitcoin tx using nodejs? I'm using bitcoinjs-lib | 04:25 |
|---|---|---|
| rende | Do I just need some node ip addresses and send to them over udp or something? | 04:25 |
| rende | shit looks like im the wrong channel | 04:26 |
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| visitor | Ive got a question about bitcoing mining | 05:36 |
| visitor | if anyone is there? | 05:36 |
| visitor | Ill ask anyway and pop back later. | 05:37 |
| belcher | try in #bitcoin visitor | 05:37 |
| belcher | also dont ask to ask, just ask | 05:37 |
| visitor | lol thanks | 05:37 |
| visitor | I dont get where to "register" a solved block once I manage to solve a block - I have a feeling theres something Im just not understanding about the lack of centralisation in bitcoin so maybe my question doesnt have an answer because Im asking the wrong question, so from where Im looking "to register a solved block", what is it Im not getting here | 05:39 |
| fluffypony | visitor: #bitcoin is the appropriate room for your question | 05:43 |
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| rusty | Fuck, I spent a day trying to figure out why my tx signatures were failing for SegWit. I finally stumbled onto the existence of BIP 143 | 06:04 |
| waxwing | rusty: heh :) | 06:20 |
| waxwing | rusty: after replicating that, ndorier's site is useful i found for more sanity checks | 06:24 |
| waxwing | http://n.bitcoin.ninja/checktx | 06:24 |
| rusty | waxwing: nice, thanks! | 06:25 |
| rusty | waxwing: I'm trying to implement from only the BIPs... keeps me honest :) | 06:25 |
| waxwing | note: "signature hash" field is little endian there | 06:25 |
| waxwing | yeah well, not many choices, right :) | 06:25 |
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| instagibbs | *glares at rusty for not reading the bips* | 07:02 |
| rusty | instagibbs: *SO MANY BIPS*! | 07:02 |
| instagibbs | yeah... but where did you think the O(n^2) hashing was hiding :P | 07:03 |
| rusty | instagibbs: I didn't realize that segwit had slayed that dragon too. | 07:04 |
| instagibbs | btw the reference code in the bip is ~same as in the segwit branch | 07:04 |
| instagibbs | ok enough off-topic for wizardry :) | 07:04 |
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| bsm1175321 | Re: timing and the links posted by kanzure, some involving zooko...I often wonder if a dynamical definition of "time" would not be acceptable. Financial systems inherently have time and while from a database construction perspective that's ugly as sin, rent becomes due and obligations expire in the human financial world according to clocks. | 12:03 |
| bsm1175321 | Couldn't there be a dynamical protocol (similar to bitcoin's retargeting) that let's people be wrong on average, but provably converges to an average "network p2p time" that is not terribad? | 12:04 |
| bsm1175321 | I mean, If I used network latencies, tied together, as a clock, I should easily be able to get sub-second precision on time. | 12:05 |
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| Eliel_ | bsm1175321: I think you could probably use an identity based DAG structure to manage a consensus about what the time is. That is, every participant records a message with current time, their identity and signature as well as several previously seen messages from other identities (and one of their own) about previous times. | 13:30 |
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| Taek | Eliel: would be more comforting if there were clear incentives to tell the right time, though I'm really not sure how you'd manage that | 14:18 |
| Eliel_ | Taek: I think that as long as one node in the whole set of nodes participating is telling the right time, you can figure out the time. | 14:20 |
| Eliel_ | with that structure | 14:20 |
| Taek | but what about the adversarial case? I don't see how, if half or more of the nodes attempting to mislead you, that you would be able to figure out the correct time? | 14:22 |
| Eliel_ | at least given a little history | 14:22 |
| Taek | hmm | 14:22 |
| Eliel_ | you have your own clock, so you can tell if others are skewing the time. | 14:22 |
| Eliel_ | and can detect which nodes are doing it properly | 14:22 |
| Taek | as long as you have a minimal amount of trust with regards to your own clock :P | 14:23 |
| Eliel_ | yes, you need to be able to trust your own clock (or another specific node in the network) | 14:24 |
| r0ach | Anyone in here know why Peter Todd said Bitpay's idea of dynamic block size was "broken" the other day? (I think it was Bitpay, I forgot). Wasn't their idea the same thing Monero already uses? | 14:24 |
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| Taek | does Monero use dynamic block size? Can you link to the bitpay proposal? There are a number of problems with all dynamic blocksize protocols that I know of | 14:25 |
| Taek | the majority of the problems come back to the fact that it gives the miners too much power, you can constantly disregard the bottom 10% of miners (in terms of ability to handle the load), and this causes an ongoing spiral until you've only got huge miners left | 14:26 |
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| Eliel_ | yes, median has that problem. However, would that be the case if it wasn't median but something like 20th percentile? (median can be considered to be 50th percentile) | 14:27 |
| r0ach | I've never really understand the benefits of a dynamic block size over just manually engineering it to the max you think your system can handle in the first place, but that's just me heh | 14:27 |
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| Taek | r0ach: the major advantage is that technology is improving all the time. Not only is the networking code in Bitcoin getting better, but the underlying network as a whole is getting better | 14:28 |
| Taek | cpus faster, etc | 14:28 |
| r0ach | well, yea, the "if you believe you will not have to hard fork for the next 100 years" theory | 14:28 |
| Taek | ideally, you'd have some automatic way to detect what the max load of the system is and adjust to it, because growth is not very predictable | 14:28 |
| Taek | I think that are a lot of reasons to be afraid of hardforks | 14:29 |
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| Taek | like, monetary policy is sort of a hardfork on your currency | 14:30 |
| Taek | you change the underlying assumptions about the supply and demand | 14:30 |
| Taek | hardforking the throughput of the network has a similar effect | 14:30 |
| Taek | suddenly people who thought that their computers/connections were good enough for a while might find themselves needing to upgrade | 14:31 |
| dEBRUYNE | Taek: Yes Monero uses a dynamic blocksize limit | 14:31 |
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| Taek | and that generally goes against the philosophy of decentralization | 14:31 |
| dEBRUYNE | I think PT said it was broken because it didn´t use a penalty (the proposal) | 14:31 |
| Taek | *well the philosophy of Bitcoin | 14:31 |
| Taek | fluffypony: why does monero use a dynamic blocksize limit? lol | 14:31 |
| * dEBRUYNE pages smooth | 14:33 | |
| dEBRUYNE | Taek: The penalty in Monero makes it viable as far as I know, but one of the developers can probably elaborate better on it | 14:34 |
| r0ach | it's hard to look at things like that and figure out all the outlier cases, which is why I wanted Peter Todd to clarify on the Monero implementation vs Bitpay | 14:35 |
| smooth | Taek: the stated reason for the dynamic block size limit is to avoid having it be set by developers | 14:39 |
| Taek | smooth: who sets it? (thanks for joining) | 14:39 |
| smooth | an algorithm | 14:39 |
| smooth | i think it was discussed above? | 14:39 |
| Taek | I mean, what are the inputs that drive the algorithm? | 14:39 |
| smooth | median block size and, indirectly, market rate on transaction fees | 14:40 |
| smooth | also i kind of disagree with the "miners have too much power" whenever you get to >50% of miners | 14:40 |
| smooth | because >50% of miners can pretty well do whatever the hell they want in practice | 14:40 |
| smooth | best not to even get there | 14:41 |
| dEBRUYNE | Taek: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/45b8qn/my_journey_to_finding_monero_and_some_questions/czwlcdb | 14:41 |
| dEBRUYNE | ¨As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)², with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, th | 14:41 |
| dEBRUYNE | e 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.¨ | 14:41 |
| Taek | ah, thanks | 14:41 |
| dEBRUYNE | ^ tacotime´s comment | 14:41 |
| Taek | re: bitpay, bitpay allows exponential growth of the blocksize based on the average size of blocks over the past 3 months, that strikes me as pretty dangerous. Miners are incentivized to include any transactions that have fees which exceed the introduced orphan risk | 14:42 |
| dEBRUYNE | ^ I think they changed that to median | 14:43 |
| dEBRUYNE | instead of average | 14:43 |
| Taek | and methods of preconsensus mean that the orphan risk is not guaranteed to be linear with the size of the transaction | 14:43 |
| Taek | ok, but the same problems still apply. All you need to do is keep a constant dump of low fee transactions in the system and you'll get maximum growth | 14:43 |
| Taek | miners that are larger or have better networks will have less issues with orphan risk | 14:44 |
| Taek | which means you again get the problem that the bottom few % are always going to be the victims | 14:44 |
| Taek | but iterate over that a few times and the floor is very high | 14:44 |
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| Taek | Spam attacks aside, I do believe that the natural growth of Bitcoin is going to exceed our network capabilities relatively quickly | 14:45 |
| smooth | well in monero with low fee transactions you will only get very slow growth | 14:45 |
| Taek | and, you get lazy implementations when fees are cheap. Exchanges that make 2 transactions per withdrawal, for example | 14:45 |
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| Taek | (I'm still focused on just the BitPay proposal) | 14:45 |
| smooth | (unless >50% of miners are being malicious) | 14:45 |
| smooth | ah okay, well i think their lack of any cost to increase the block size is problematic | 14:46 |
| Taek | agreed | 14:46 |
| Taek | huh. Subsidy based on number of coins in existence is pretty interesting. I guess I haven't looked at Monero very closely ever | 14:47 |
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| smooth | Taek: it works out to the same sort of exponential decline as btc, except by block | 14:48 |
| Taek | but then extends if you burn coins | 14:48 |
| Taek | which is a neat trick | 14:48 |
| smooth | right | 14:48 |
| smooth | in btc each epoch distributes 1/2 of the remaining coins; in moenro each block distributes 1/large_number of remaining coins | 14:49 |
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| bsm1175321 | I mean, Re: time (Taek, Eliel_, smooth), any idiotic scheme in which everyone reports time results in an "average" time just by averaging their reports. Now, can an incentive cause such a definition of average time to converge toward some definition of "actual" time? One idiotic scheme would be to under-report times when I thought the network average was too high, and over-report when I thought it was too low. | 17:25 |
| bsm1175321 | What I'm actually driving toward is a definition of "time" that is based on "miners" distributed around the surface of a sphere, that is insensitive to delayed reports, but simultaneously doesn't incentivize centralization. | 17:27 |
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| Taek | I still like the solution of using a picture of the stars to tell what the time is | 19:07 |
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| Taek | I was informed recently that this is how MAD nuclear missiles guide themselves, that way they are not dependent on tech like satellites or the internet, or anything else that could be destroyed by opposing MAD nuclear missiles | 19:08 |
| Taek | not that I've seen a ton of suggestions for decentralized time, but most schemes that I've seen so far rely on a bunch of honest nodes without having explicit incentives in the direction of honesty | 19:10 |
| Taek | also, apparently you can get atomic clocks for fairly cheap that are miles better than quartz | 19:10 |
| Taek | *that fit on a chip | 19:10 |
| Taek | so if you could get a reasonably trustworthy approximation of the current time, you could have high certainty in the accuracy of your clock as long as you had the right hardware | 19:11 |
| Taek | but simply getting the current time ends up being a challenge | 19:11 |
| belcher | a picture of the stars would only tell you geological time wouldnt it? whether you're in the mesoproterozoic or the paleoarchean | 19:12 |
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| belcher | stars move very slowly relative to each other | 19:12 |
| kanzure | yes i have been meaning to write my own open-source stellar navigation program, not convinced everyone else is doing it correctly | 19:12 |
| kanzure | ... or find an existing one. | 19:12 |
| Taek | belcher: I couldn't be 100% certain, but Earth ends up playing a huge role. The Earth + Sun are moving enough that the parallax effects should give you a high resolution on what the current time is | 19:16 |
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| Taek | though, I'm not sure what sort of picture you need to be able to see that effect. 5mp might not be enough, and anything short of a large telescope might not be enough either | 19:17 |
| * Taek writes an email to an old astronomy professor | 19:17 | |
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| belcher | Taek that would take hundreds of millions of years to notice a difference | 19:23 |
| belcher | those nuclear missiles you're talking about use the stars to find direction, not time | 19:24 |
| Taek | modern astronomy relies pretty heavily on the parallax effect | 19:26 |
| Taek | I took a class on this like 2 years ago | 19:26 |
| belcher | we're talking about different things here, im thinking the real motion of the stars | 19:26 |
| phantomcircuit | belcher, huh? iirc they use inertial navigation | 19:26 |
| belcher | parallax is for finding distance to the stars, and measurements must be taken six months apart, maybe theres a way to get time from that but i can think of a way | 19:27 |
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| belcher | phantomcircuit idk, Taek said nuclear missiles used stars | 19:28 |
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| belcher | they probably use both, inertial navigation can give you position more than direction | 19:29 |
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| bsm1175321 | Taek I guess the cryptographic assumption that your adversary cannot accelerate a remote mass at more than X m/s^2 is valid? | 19:31 |
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| Taek | well, the software could be written to tolerate a few stars that seem out of place | 19:32 |
| bsm1175321 | That's a rather bizarre cryptographic assumption. Though I will accept the laws of physics as ultimate limits on an adversary. ;-) | 19:32 |
| Taek | so more I'm assuming that the adversary can't move more than 1/3f + 1 stars :) | 19:32 |
| belcher | in terms of physics, theres no such thing as an absolute time | 19:32 |
| Taek | *3f + 1 | 19:32 |
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| bsm1175321 | Well it's a lot easier to fake a star with a nearby source... | 19:32 |
| belcher | if one of your nodes goes close to a black hole, it can legitimately state a time that is different from all others | 19:32 |
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| Taek | oh yeah, I guess the adversary could just replace the sky or something | 19:32 |
| c0rw1n | belcher: yeah but the consensus will reject i t | 19:33 |
| c0rw1n | also how woud it send the network packets :s | 19:33 |
| belcher | it doesnt have to fall into the black hole, just get close enough, so packets can still go out | 19:33 |
| bsm1175321 | Well. it's a lot cheaper to place a shiny object in a correct orbit than to move stars... | 19:33 |
| phantomcircuit | bsm1175321, seems like a pretty normal cryptographic assumption to me | 19:33 |
| belcher | the consensus thing would mean you can only transact this cryptocurrency to entities in the same frame in spacetime as you | 19:34 |
| phantomcircuit | "i assume that the attacker cannot convert galaxies into energy to brute force my key" | 19:34 |
| bsm1175321 | phantomcircuit: Orbital mechanics is a bitch. | 19:34 |
| belcher | then again bitcoin basically only works on planet earth so its not too bad of a limitation | 19:34 |
| bsm1175321 | Well a 10m block time basically places its reach out beyond mars... | 19:34 |
| belcher | mining at least | 19:34 |
| * bsm1175321 mines on mars. | 19:35 | |
| bsm1175321 | Not very profitably, mind you. | 19:35 |
| bsm1175321 | But there are few sources of profit out here... | 19:35 |
| belcher | the light speed delay from mars is between 13 minutes and 24 minutes | 19:35 |
| belcher | it would be -blocksonly=1 nodes only so far as i can see | 19:36 |
| bsm1175321 | belcher, congratulations on your googling abilities. So a relevant fraction of the time I could mine on Mars and broadcast to earth. ;-) | 19:36 |
| belcher | wouldnt all your blocks be orphaned if the mining majority is on earth ? | 19:37 |
| belcher | thats 13 minutes, not seconds | 19:37 |
| bsm1175321 | Some fraction, yes. | 19:37 |
| c0rw1n | lots of them would, presumably | 19:37 |
| bsm1175321 | But not 100%. | 19:37 |
| Taek | (mars and earth are not always the same distance apart) | 19:37 |
| c0rw1n | (yes, that is why 13 to 24 min) | 19:38 |
| phantomcircuit | bsm1175321, you'd have a pretty abismal orphan rate | 19:38 |
| phantomcircuit | 50+% | 19:38 |
| bsm1175321 | As Taek says, this is a whole lot more worthwhile when Earth and Mars are on the same side of the Sun. ;-) | 19:38 |
| Taek | oh, missed the word 'between', sorry | 19:38 |
| belcher | id say stick to mining water when on mars | 19:39 |
| fluffypony | lol | 19:39 |
| fluffypony | "miners are switching that h2ocoin | 19:39 |
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| c0rw1n | proof of water, how would that work | 19:40 |
| belcher | water is frozen everywhere in martian soil, it can be very decentralzied | 19:40 |
| Taek | Even if orphan rate was not a problem, I'm assuming that you aren't going to be hitting the same economies of scale when constructing ASICs on Mars | 19:40 |
| belcher | collect some soil and warm it up, water will outgas | 19:40 |
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| bsm1175321 | My braid project kills orphans. But the settlement time is propotional to the latency of the network. | 19:40 |
| bsm1175321 | So...Earth-Mars is sexy but hella slow. | 19:41 |
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| bsm1175321 | On the surface of the earth we're talking < 1s settlement time. | 19:41 |
| bsm1175321 | It's only ~200ms to transmit a signal to the other side of the earth. | 19:41 |
| fluffypony | just lay fibre from earth to mars | 19:42 |
| bsm1175321 | Fiber is 1/3 the speed of light. Radio is better. | 19:42 |
| fluffypony | what about a very powerful laser | 19:42 |
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| bsm1175321 | We do that all the time. Lasers move at the speed of light. Same speed as radio, but aiming is a lot harder. | 19:43 |
| bsm1175321 | http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html | 19:43 |
| Taek | I'm sure that inter-planetary settlement does not need to happen every second :P | 19:43 |
| belcher | we shoot the miner with lasers all the time | 19:43 |
| belcher | bitcoin core on mars with -blocksonly=1 would work perfectly fine | 19:43 |
| bsm1175321 | Basically, the Apollo astronauts left corner reflectors on the surface of the moon. | 19:44 |
| Taek | might be okay when mars is small, but you do get stuck in the position where Earth essentially controls all of the finances | 19:44 |
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| bsm1175321 | We use them to this day to accurately measure the Earth-Moon distance to within ~ mm. | 19:44 |
| belcher | Taek maybe a mars sidechain | 19:44 |
| fluffypony | yeah | 19:44 |
| fluffypony | that settles back to earth once or twice a day | 19:44 |
| fluffypony | Marschain | 19:44 |
| kanzure | don't contaminate mars with money | 19:45 |
| belcher | or just only settles when people need to do interplanetary trade | 19:45 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with you people | 19:45 |
| belcher | kanzure we're far from that dont worry, afaik not even antarctica uses money yet | 19:45 |
| kanzure | "if you can name a planetary body, then you've named a place man has figured out to introduce money" | 19:45 |
| Taek | I still think you'd run into trouble with the hardware production. Any hashrate on Mars is going to be more expensive than the same hashrate built and powered on Earth. | 19:46 |
| bsm1175321 | We have to shard things first. It's not a reasonable assumption that every Mars transaction is spending an Earth UTXO. | 19:46 |
| belcher | how long until a Kepler-452b-coin ? | 19:46 |
| Taek | made it yesterday | 19:46 |
| Taek | have a bot making coins with CoinGen | 19:46 |
| bsm1175321 | Jeez guyz, I'm trying to be serious here. :-P | 19:47 |
| kanzure | probably need some sort of multiple-onion-layer (not the routing concept) for interstellar distances.. greater distance means more infrequent timing. | 19:47 |
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| bsm1175321 | A 13m settlment time is unreasonable. So is a 6*(10m) time :-P | 19:47 |
| kanzure | but not much you can do if the digital representation does not correspond to the physical deliveries flying between systems | 19:48 |
| Taek | bsm1175321: we've hit enough topics that I'm not sure which one you are trying to be serious about. I think a 13m settlement time is perfectly reasonable even for Earth | 19:48 |
| belcher | its not just settlement, even lightning transactions would take 13m | 19:48 |
| fluffypony | so are we admitting that Marscoin will be a settlement chain? | 19:48 |
| * bsm1175321 notices that his simulations involving 1s settlement times have finished. | 19:48 | |
| * fluffypony forks it into Marscoin XT | 19:49 | |
| Taek | if you assume a lightning-like infrastructure, you can do non-settlement based off-chain payments extremely quickly, and settle days or months later | 19:49 |
| belcher | not between earth and mars Taek | 19:49 |
| belcher | physics means planets will always be remote from each other | 19:49 |
| bsm1175321 | This is a fun conversation. I wish I didn't have so much gin. | 19:49 |
| Taek | but you can do mars<->mars transactions quickly | 19:49 |
| belcher | oh yes | 19:49 |
| bsm1175321 | The solar system implies a hub-and-spoke model... | 19:50 |
| kanzure | belcher: you can actually force planets to be closer together | 19:50 |
| belcher | we need a way to force mining to happen on mars and then we can make a mars sidechain | 19:50 |
| Taek | Would could you possibly pay for in an earth<->mars transaction that would require faster settlement than the speed of light? | 19:50 |
| belcher | maybe the Mars Authority can simply sign blocks for us | 19:50 |
| bsm1175321 | belcher: But then you have to isolate the subset of UTXO's that are active on Mars. | 19:50 |
| belcher | bsm1175321 thats what a sidechain does, doesnt it ? | 19:50 |
| bsm1175321 | Eh... | 19:50 |
| bsm1175321 | Maybe... | 19:50 |
| belcher | you say that bitcoin utxos are active on earth, marscoin ones on mars | 19:51 |
| bsm1175321 | belcher: In other words I can buy Marscoin and convert it back to Earthcoin, sure. But that's hella boring. | 19:51 |
| kanzure | digital transactions between star systems is nice and all, but what exactly are you paying for-- supplies? information? supplies might be required but you'll get them thousands of years later. | 19:51 |
| belcher | yes kanzure | 19:52 |
| fluffypony | kanzure: that's what ZKCP is for | 19:52 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure colony/city engineering can correctly predict supply requirements 1000 years ahead of time. AFAIK nyc subway planning only considers the next 5 minutes. | 19:52 |
| fluffypony | it's fine if the supplies take time | 19:52 |
| belcher | there simply might not be demand for interstellar and interplanetary money transfer | 19:52 |
| bsm1175321 | belcher: Bitcoin does not have a natural way to divide UTXO's by (stellar) geography. There's no way to know who is nearby or who is more likely to be spent soon. | 19:52 |
| kanzure | belcher: i think that the main demand for interstellar transfer will be computing-related, e.g. transferring brain emulations. | 19:52 |
| bsm1175321 | belcher: You bet there ass there will be. | 19:52 |
| bsm1175321 | There will always be someone who will accept assets on Mars in exchange for the promise of assets on Earth, and this is hella interesting and valuable. | 19:53 |
| kanzure | perhaps you can design high-reliability civilizations where you can regularly pay for shipments 1000s of years before they arrive but so far we have trouble engineering anything with any amount of reliability | 19:53 |
| belcher | bsm1175321 ok yes, i suppose cryptocurrency is more secure that loading up the ship with gold bars for its return trip as payment | 19:53 |
| Taek | So, once we're talking inter-solar transactions, there are very few resources that make sense to transfer, due to difficulties such as escape velocity | 19:54 |
| bsm1175321 | Gold bars my ass. Bitcoin solved the counterparty problem in one-way sends... | 19:54 |
| fluffypony | what if we can bend microspace for each transaction, so the credit-card-style machine can instantly connect to the other one? | 19:54 |
| kanzure | Taek: some planets just don't have all the necessary "vitamins". | 19:54 |
| Taek | as kanzure suggested, information is about the only one that's really important. And a lot of the most important information you could almost do for free, because the cost of transferring information is much much lower than the cost of moving say, gold | 19:55 |
| c0rw1n | fluffypony: then that will be the tx fee ? | 19:55 |
| kanzure | well, bandwidth | 19:55 |
| funkenstein_ | stross covers interstellar payments in a neat way in "accelerondo" | 19:55 |
| bsm1175321 | Taek: Exactly. Crypto-currency is a huge advantage in interstellar commerce. | 19:55 |
| bsm1175321 | s/interstellar/interplanetary/ | 19:55 |
| fluffypony | c0rw1n: excellent | 19:55 |
| Taek | kanzure: at some point, nuclear fusion covers all of your needs | 19:55 |
| kanzure | bsm1175321: maybe, but having a 10 million year settlement/synchronization time is unworkable. what does it mean when a 100,000 year old transaction fails to settle? what the fuck do you do? | 19:55 |
| Taek | depends on how expensive it ends up being to convert hydrogen to X | 19:55 |
| bsm1175321 | kanzure: On a human timescale, sure. But on corporate? The island of Hong Kong was leased for 99 years... | 19:56 |
| kanzure | if you have the same people still living or whatever, perhaps they can fix the transaction and try again or something | 19:56 |
| Taek | LOL | 19:56 |
| bsm1175321 | I went to the museum. | 19:56 |
| Taek | I'm sure that whatever governance ends up dictating relationships between entities 100,000 years apart will be well beyond anything we can reason about today | 19:56 |
| bsm1175321 | Indeed. | 19:57 |
| kanzure | i doubt there will be governance | 19:57 |
| belcher | there also exist 100 year and 1000 year bonds | 19:57 |
| kanzure | there are 1000 year bonds? | 19:57 |
| Taek | 1000 year bonds 0.o. Seems like a pretty safe bet for a government to make imho | 19:57 |
| bsm1175321 | To return to the conversation yesterday about clocks... | 19:57 |
| bsm1175321 | How do you measure 1000 years? And what happens if you're off by 0.1%? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | no clocks; they are a german/swiss conspiracy to employ more physicists. | 19:58 |
| kanzure | under what conditions does a modern investor buy a 1000 year bond...? i don't understand. | 19:58 |
| bsm1175321 | kanzure: fucking centralization | 19:58 |
| kanzure | bsm1175321: i believe the long now foundation has already answered your question. | 19:58 |
| belcher | bsm1175321 atomic clocks ? | 19:58 |
| bsm1175321 | kanzure: I don't believe they have. | 19:58 |
| kanzure | don't they claim to have built a clock accurate to 10,000 years off by only a few milliseconds | 19:58 |
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| bsm1175321 | I know plenty about atomic clocks, and I don't trust yours. | 19:58 |
| belcher | kanzure there also exist bonds which pay back, called perpetual bonds, they are bets on long term inflation i guess | 19:59 |
| belcher | which never pay back* | 19:59 |
| kanzure | belcher: so it's probably corporate/government entities buying the 1k year bonds? | 19:59 |
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| belcher | yes | 19:59 |
| kanzure | that's interesting. i could see a lot of funding tricks for mars colonies like "a bond that represents 5% of all intellectual property output and its revenue" (or whatever). (yes i know we shouldn't taint mars with intellectual property nonsense...). | 20:00 |
| bsm1175321 | The latest tech is particle fountains. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/how-nist-f2-works.cfm | 20:00 |
| bsm1175321 | Still don't trust yours. | 20:00 |
| kanzure | have you considered giving up on clocks, instead? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | they seem to be wrong all the time anyway | 20:01 |
| kanzure | which is their one function | 20:01 |
| bsm1175321 | kanzure: Works for databases, not so much for contracts. | 20:01 |
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| kanzure | haha contracts and time..... so all contracts are synced to NIST atomic clocks? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | sounds like a vulnerability to me | 20:02 |
| bsm1175321 | Dunno. If you were to convince bankers to move off "time" for contracts, what would you do? | 20:02 |
| funkenstein_ | i use astronomical clocks for all contracts | 20:02 |
| funkenstein_ | quarters are solstices and equinoxes, months begin with full moons | 20:03 |
| bsm1175321 | When the conjunction of J1288434 and S82323 reach perhelion, assuming no transient object intervenes... | 20:03 |
| funkenstein_ | lol | 20:03 |
| kanzure | bsm1175321: probably bilateral agreement about certain events and market conditions.. not sure. i'll think about it. | 20:03 |
| bsm1175321 | That's just about as accurate as using clouds for timekeeping. | 20:03 |
| Taek | proof-of-transient-intervention | 20:03 |
| bsm1175321 | Then there's this: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/515321/an-interplanetary-gps-using-pulsar-signals/ | 20:04 |
| bsm1175321 | Which is not a bad idea... | 20:04 |
| kanzure | do you really trust anything the size of a star that rotates more than a million times per second? really? | 20:05 |
| Taek | http://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10324/is-it-possible-to-use-the-stars-to-determine-the-passage-of-time | 20:05 |
| bsm1175321 | Still we're talking about a huge investment in equipment to observe some remote shit, and I still don't (cryptographically) trust your setup. | 20:05 |
| Taek | ^ a professional astronomer dropped into a random place with a crappy telescope 10,000 years into the future should be able to tell within 2,000 years that they have been shifted 10,000 years | 20:06 |
| Taek | that's without a computer | 20:06 |
| kanzure | oops fastest spinning star found so far is 716 Hz sorry, my ba | 20:06 |
| kanzure | *my bad | 20:06 |
| funkenstein_ | do you really need to make a contract with more temporal accuracy than provided by the moon? | 20:06 |
| bsm1175321 | funkenstein_: That's not really the problem. The correct question is: can an adversary delude you that the correct time is +/- X seconds | 20:07 |
| bsm1175321 | If everyone has a telescope, that's one thing. Do you? | 20:07 |
| funkenstein_ | i'm talking about luna here, Earth's moon | 20:07 |
| kanzure | Taek: so even with information, still not sure why you would be buying/selling information over interstellar distances. by the time you received the requested transmission, perhaps you could have re-derived the information on your own anyway. | 20:08 |
| bsm1175321 | Accurate measurements of the moon require laser ranging. They shoot a humongofucking laser at the corner reflector left by the Apollo astronauts and the get back a *handful* of photons. | 20:08 |
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| bsm1175321 | It's a very expensive proposition to accurately perform this measurement. This is why modern timekeeping has moved to Cesium fountains, which are more accurate. | 20:09 |
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| funkenstein_ | bsm1175321, lol.. i use full moon as payment marker for employees in contracts. no microsecond accuracy necessary | 20:09 |
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| bsm1175321 | funkenstein_ has better goons than bsm1175321. | 20:09 |
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| funkenstein_ | bsm1175321, if your goons dance to Cesium fountains, perhaps not :) | 20:10 |
| kanzure | Taek: also... for large astronomical distances, there's only a limited number of rounds of communication before the stars die out anyway. | 20:11 |
| Taek | kanzure: true. The rate at which technological progress is happening suggests that information would be mostly irrelevant even just 100 years old | 20:11 |
| kanzure | 4 billion light years + 100 participants or something => oops stars might be dead by the time you get around to finalizing even just your first or second round of communication. | 20:11 |
| Taek | if you are doing bigger projects, say forming galaxy-sized theme parks or something, you might be moving around massive amounts of material. | 20:12 |
| Taek | I don't see any way that you'd do stuff at a distance exceeding a billion light years | 20:12 |
| kanzure | yeah so that's definitely on my todo list but it's not a near-term priority for me | 20:12 |
| Taek | lol, even 10,000 light years is beyond imagining | 20:12 |
| kanzure | well you have intergalactic bullshit, you see | 20:12 |
| bsm1175321 | OTOH, those contracts are gonna be hella expensive. Can I bet on the Spanish expedition to the New World already? | 20:12 |
| kanzure | we have andromeda colliding with us in a few million years | 20:12 |
| kanzure | but there are other galaxies too | 20:13 |
| kanzure | oh, 4 billion years | 20:13 |
| kanzure | hey that's perfect. | 20:13 |
| Taek | Andromeda is O(2 million) light years away | 20:13 |
| kanzure | "The galaxy that will be the result of the collision is nicknamed Milkomeda.[5]" wtf, are we stuck with that name | 20:14 |
| bsm1175321 | Fun fact: Andromeda subtends a section of the sky approximately the same size as the full moon. | 20:14 |
| kanzure | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Andromeda_Collides_Milky_Way.jpg | 20:15 |
| kanzure | Taek: probably it would not make sense to do transactions on any system where the total settlement time is far beyond your own personal lifetime :P | 20:17 |
| kanzure | also, PoW based systems would be heavily skewed towards centers of galaxies because that's where more energy is available | 20:19 |
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| funkenstein_ | the audacity to talk like one knows whats going on on galactic scales is remarkable. there is too much unexplained in there to take it seriously | 20:48 |
| Taek | well, that's half the fun of being a -wizard | 20:48 |
| funkenstein_ | i thought that was -alechimst | 20:49 |
| Taek | is there much of a difference? An alchemist is basically the renissance version of a wizard | 20:50 |
| funkenstein_ | I should caveat that perhaps you guys do know how galaxies form, are held together, etc.. but personally I don't | 20:50 |
| kanzure | have you considered reading about astronomy and astrophysics | 20:50 |
| kanzure | this is a simple problem to fix, you know | 20:50 |
| funkenstein_ | i have an advanced degree in the field | 20:50 |
| Taek | (really?) | 20:51 |
| kanzure | so the answer is yes | 20:51 |
| funkenstein_ | yeah still trying :) | 20:51 |
| Taek | I mean, I think you can get pretty far just by knowing that galaxies are 2 million lightyears apart. Any communication is going to take 2 million years, which means the set of practical interactions is very tiny, and limited to things requiring extreme scale | 20:52 |
| funkenstein_ | "knowing" in this case is a rather complex series of assumptions | 20:52 |
| funkenstein_ | parallax + standard candles | 20:52 |
| Taek | oh? Are you suggesting it's possible that Andromeda is not 2 million light years away? I had assumed that was pretty well established | 20:53 |
| kanzure | i have seen some papers questioning whether accelerating expansion of the universe is real or just fallout of bad calculations | 20:53 |
| kanzure | or that black holes might not really be there | 20:53 |
| funkenstein_ | the distance problem is the second biggest problem of astronomy | 20:53 |
| Taek | to what degree? I thought that, at a very low resolution, most of the standard candle was well proven | 20:54 |
| Taek | (I've taken some undergrad courses in astronomy, nothing more) | 20:55 |
| funkenstein_ | cepheid variable seem decent enough but it's very hard to put a good error bar on there | 20:55 |
| funkenstein_ | galaxies appear remarkably close together at any rate | 20:57 |
| Taek | funkenstein_: I don't think you weighed in earlier, but do you have an idea of how useful a photograph of the stars from a modern consumer camera would be for determining the current date+time? | 20:57 |
| funkenstein_ | if you caught a planet in there it would be quite good | 20:57 |
| Taek | order of minutes? | 20:58 |
| funkenstein_ | no probably not | 20:58 |
| funkenstein_ | moon would be best bet for high time resolution | 20:59 |
| funkenstein_ | moves 360 degrees vs. stars in 28 days | 20:59 |
| funkenstein_ | fastest moving object on celestial sphere | 20:59 |
| Taek | so, you could use the constellations to get an epoch, close stars to get the milleneum, a planet to get the month, and the moon to get down to maybe 10 minutes? | 21:00 |
| funkenstein_ | yeah :) something like that | 21:01 |
| funkenstein_ | a fair amount of work went into archaeoastrnometry trying to date ancient temples | 21:01 |
| funkenstein_ | Barnard's star is fastest moving star I am aware of | 21:02 |
| funkenstein_ | but constellations aren't going to change much.. your "epoch" won't necessarily give time in the long cycle (precession of equinoxes) | 21:04 |
| Taek | maybe the wobble of the Earth would be good enough? For my purposes, you can really assume that you already the date within a decade, so the long term dating is less important | 21:06 |
| Taek | Even assuming the year+month+day is pretty reasonable | 21:06 |
| funkenstein_ | I recommend "longitude" by David Sobel | 21:07 |
| funkenstein_ | a lot of people tried to solve your problem for the purposes of determining one's longitude using the stars | 21:07 |
| funkenstein_ | in the end it was mechanical clocks that won | 21:07 |
| funkenstein_ | it should be possible today though | 21:08 |
| funkenstein_ | only we have gps so nobody cares to make the effort | 21:08 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Apr 10 00:00:01 2016 | ||
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