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| lmatteis | is anybody aware of work regarding reaching consensus, on some type of history, based on CAPTCHAs? idea being that rather than doing finding the hash via brute-force collision (proof of work), it is somewhat tied to how many CAPTCHAs were resolved by users. hence the history accepted by peers is the one with most resolved CAPTCHAs | 12:39 |
|---|---|---|
| funkenstein_ | decaptcher.org | 12:41 |
| funkenstein_ | de-captcher.com, etc | 12:42 |
| Ademan-remote | lmatteis: an authority is needed to declare a solution valid or invalid, which can allow collusion that I don't know how to resolve | 12:42 |
| Ademan-remote | even in a decentralized system, the "issuer" of a captcha is the authority, which allows collusion still | 12:43 |
| Ademan-remote | perhaps I'm missing something though | 12:44 |
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| lmatteis | Ademan-remote: you mean the generation of captcha challanges cannot be decentralized? | 12:45 |
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| lmatteis | i see, you can't independently verify that N captchas were resolved | 12:46 |
| Ademan-remote | lmatteis: you can decentralize the generation of captchas just fine, but verification is an issue | 12:46 |
| Ademan-remote | yeah | 12:46 |
| Ademan-remote | actually, it might be possible to allow independent verification if the captcha issuer published enough information to reproduce the captcha image with the given solution and captcha generation parameters | 12:47 |
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| Ademan-remote | but after publishing captcha parameters, anybody could produce a valid solution, so you're back to proving what occurred first | 12:48 |
| lmatteis | right | 12:49 |
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| maaku | lmatteis: CAPTCHAs don't work in adversarial environments | 12:58 |
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| lmatteis | maaku: depends whether the system you're building needs perfect security | 12:59 |
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| maaku | lmatteis: any kind of security where random 3rd parties (google, facebook) can sybil isn't any definition of security for me | 13:00 |
| maaku | kinda closer to the definition of 'backdoored' | 13:00 |
| lmatteis | so you didn't think bitcoin was secure in the early days | 13:01 |
| maaku | lmatteis: you miss the point. with CAPTCHAs the big machine learning companies like facebook, google have a built-in advantage | 13:02 |
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| maaku | not because they have more CPUs or some other commodity, but an algorithmic advantage | 13:04 |
| lmatteis | also data advantage ;) | 13:06 |
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| maaku | yeah | 13:09 |
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| smooth | i can't even see how catchas work at all | 15:03 |
| smooth | how is the best way to solve captchas not to replay them on another site | 15:03 |
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| Eliel | smooth: I suspect that happens quite a lot. | 15:09 |
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| Taek | I am currently having dinner with Peter Sands, one of the major proponents of the elimination of the high denomination notes, having played a role in getting Europe to drop the 500 euro bill | 15:44 |
| fluffypony | oh cool, tell him I say hi | 15:45 |
| fluffypony | kidding, don't do that, it'll just make things awkward at the next Secret Ball for Important People | 15:45 |
| Taek | If anyone has questions I'll forward them, his major argument is that high denomination bills are nearly exclusively used for crime | 15:46 |
| Taek | I would like to raise objections but don't know the best way to do that | 15:46 |
| Taek | fluffypony: haven't been invited to that one yet, it's above my pay grade I think | 15:47 |
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| kanzure | Taek: and lower-denomination bills wont be used for crime instead? | 15:48 |
| fluffypony | the criminals will just use bigger suitcases | 15:48 |
| dEBRUYNE | Taek: 33% of all Euro bills are 500E bills, hard to argue they are exclusively used for crime | 15:49 |
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| bsm117532 | Tell him I hate his guts. Seriously. Let's solve money laundering by pushing everyone to craptacular insecure electronic networks (e.g. Visa) and push crime to identity theft instead. | 15:49 |
| bsm117532 | It's practically impossible to make many common transactions in cash now (e.g. paying my rent) | 15:49 |
| smooth | I dont see how denominations of cash has anything to do with paying your rent | 15:51 |
| Taek | Kanzure: needing 10 suitcases instead of 2 is certainly going to make things more annoying. | 15:51 |
| smooth | although going down to 20s would be another matter | 15:51 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} tell him a fuck you from me taek | 15:51 |
| kanzure | Taek: i suspect other means of payment will always be found | 15:51 |
| dEBRUYNE | Taek: Still 200 bills, so more like 5 suitcases :-P | 15:52 |
| bsm117532 | https://twitter.com/BobMcElrath/status/699251150760054784 | 15:52 |
| smooth | agree re. good for bitcoin | 15:52 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} control crime, criminals use a fuxking bank | 15:52 |
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| bsm117532 | smooth: ATM's can't hold enough bills to dispense them if people were paying rent in cash. | 15:55 |
| smooth | bsm117532: atms mostly hold 20s now, they could hold 100s | 15:55 |
| bsm117532 | There are lots of consumer goods which practically cannot be purchased in cash now due to this douchenozzle. Computers, for instance. | 15:56 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} they hold 500s here, if u withdraw higher amounts | 15:56 |
| sipa | {-othe} are you in switzerland? | 15:56 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} I will buy my next car for 30k eur in 5 eur bills and tell the dealer to complain to those doucebags | 15:56 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} no Germany. | 15:57 |
| Taek | He's in favor of outright banning all cash transactions in excess of $1000. =\ | 15:57 |
| sipa | And it's impossible to split a payment into 2 transactions? | 15:57 |
| Taek | *they stopped printing 500 notes, there are still almost a billion in circulation | 15:57 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: If there were a secure, anonymous network to push these cash transactions onto, I'd be in favor. But instead he pushes us all to big banks, Visa and the like, and essentially created a lot of identity theft crime and fraud because of the insecurity of the electronic networks. | 15:58 |
| sipa | i think that movement away from cash would happen regardless | 15:58 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} why split a payment? I am just annoyed by idiots telling me 500 eur bills have no use when the whole German used car market is cash only | 15:58 |
| sipa | there are just more convenient ways to pay | 15:58 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} there's no way to pay for car in real time or near real time... | 15:59 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} cars are sold as is here by law, every sale is final | 16:00 |
| bsm117532 | I want to see an honest economic analysis comparing the profits of fraud over time. For fear of money laundering we've created billions in credit card fraud. | 16:00 |
| dEBRUYNE | abandoning cash isn't going to stop money launderers/ing | 16:00 |
| smooth | billions in credit card revenue. Follow the money | 16:00 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} money laundering means making illicit gains clean and taxing them, u don't need 500 eur bills for that | 16:01 |
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| Taek | bsm117532: I would love to see those stats | 16:04 |
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| bsm117532 | https://www.payyyy.com/credit-card-fraud-statistics/ | 16:06 |
| bsm117532 | That folks is what we call an exponential curve. 47% of all fraud in USA. I blame removal of large bills (in part). | 16:06 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} they prolly didn't fake the 500 eur bill money laundering stats yet, that's why they didn't release them | 16:06 |
| sipa | but there are (in theory) means of electronic payment that are far less susceptible to the same kind of fraud | 16:07 |
| sipa | i mean... i don't understand credit cards | 16:08 |
| bsm117532 | But what I really want to see is this compared to other kinds of financial crime. My hypothesis is that other kinds of crime have fallen and been replaced by electronic transfer fraud... | 16:08 |
| Taek | Let's give someone our private key every time we pay them... | 16:08 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} sure even ideal or sofort banking is better than ccs | 16:08 |
| sipa | they're a remainder of a technical necessity years ago before a global communication network existed | 16:08 |
| sipa | that somehow turned into a means to keep americans in debt | 16:08 |
| sipa | in europe in never use a credit card, except to pay on the internet | 16:09 |
| sipa | and even that is totally unnecessary | 16:09 |
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| sipa | in theory | 16:09 |
| kanzure | sipa: backstory behind visa is pretty interesting, i suggest looking at some point.. dee hock wasn't a total moron. | 16:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.fastcompany.com/27333/trillion-dollar-vision-dee-hock | 16:10 |
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| Taek | Sands points out that by stigmatizing Bitcoin, you can make it so that people recognize Bitcoin as 'dark cash'. You may not be able to shut Bitcoin down, but with cash today you can pay someone with drug money and they will never know. Harder to do that if all legal money is fully surveilled | 16:19 |
| Taek | It's clear to me that he trusts the government, which might be the core distinction in philosophy | 16:20 |
| kanzure | if he believes this then he should start writing "for drugs, yo" on each dollar bill | 16:23 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} another solution to his stupid problem might be just to legalize drugs... | 16:35 |
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| Taek | othe: if we legalize drugs how do we justify the destruction of financial privacy? | 16:39 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} with illegal movie downloads. | 16:40 |
| MRL-Relay | {-othe} they will find other reasons, you can be sure | 16:40 |
| c0rw1n | there are three other horsemen of the infocalypse | 16:41 |
| sipa | Taek: child porn? | 16:41 |
| sipa | terrorrism? | 16:41 |
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| c0rw1n | http://web.archive.org/web/20061029141026/http://www.shipwright.com/horsemen.html | 16:41 |
| Taek | sipa: to be fair I think tax evasion is the primary concern | 16:45 |
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| smooth | Remove drugs from the equation and 99% of it goes away. There isn't much profit in the others | 16:45 |
| smooth | tax evasion is really a minimal concern because taxes can always be attached to the activity and not the payment. There have been taxes for millenia but there was never a war on cash until there was a war on drugs | 16:48 |
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| smooth | of course now that there is a war on cash it takes on a life of its own, banks profit from it, the seizure industry profits from it, etc. | 16:48 |
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| Taek | The push for negative interest rates adds a whole new dimension as well | 17:00 |
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| mdavid613 | hey all, I'm wondering if anyone knows why libsecp256k1 chose to implement ECDH the way they did, using SHA256(ECDH(X)-ECDH(Y)). I would like to use a standardized implementation for ECDH key-derivation, but I need 512 bits of entropy. Also, does anyone know of any plans to have a variable sized ECDH function in libsecp256k1 that would provide dynamic digest sizes? | 17:18 |
| sipa | mdavid613: there is no way it can give you 512 bits of entropy, as only 256 bits went in | 17:19 |
| sipa | if you need to expand the output from ECDH, feed it as seed to a stream cipher | 17:19 |
| sipa | and why it's implemented that way is to prevent certain malleability attacks (which don't usually matter, but in some cases they may) | 17:20 |
| sipa | dynamic digest sizes: certainly not, but we may add an ecdh_unsafe that just returns the point | 17:20 |
| sipa | also, see #secp256k1 | 17:21 |
| mdavid613 | sipa: got it, my issue here is that I'm feeding a DRBG so the entropy for initialization needs to be able to be reproducible on both sides and I'm not sure if a stream cipher will provide that | 17:21 |
| sipa | mdavid613: that's the point of a stream cipher | 17:21 |
| sipa | if it's not deterministic it's broken | 17:21 |
| sipa | the easiest way (if you're certain 512 bits is enough) is just SHA512(ecdh output) | 17:21 |
| sipa | where ecdh output is the sha256 result | 17:22 |
| mdavid613 | ok, that sounds like the best way to go for me, I appreciate the help @sipa | 17:22 |
| mdavid613 | 512 is enough, because the largest result I need from DRBG is 256 bits, so really I only _need_ 384 | 17:23 |
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| rusty | OK, wizards. *Is* there a good answer to https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4ip5fh/charitable_tamperproof_blockchainbased_lottery/ ? Using the blockhash is obviously gamable by miners (there was a recent paper which I don't have on hand, kanzure?). | 19:16 |
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| rusty | Mutually untrusting parties releasing hashes of secrets has the problem that you'd need timelock puzzles to force them to reveal. Which seems suboptimal. | 19:19 |
| bsm1175321 | amiller and I had an interesting conversation regarding blockchain randomness. He suggested the use of an oracle involving threshold signatures which can guarantee (up to collusion among of the random oracle contributors) a non-gameable random value for use in things like lotteries. I admit I'm still fuzzy on the details. | 19:20 |
| bsm1175321 | But it's very clear that if the lottery were large enough, there's an economic incentive to withhold blocks and keep mining until you have a block which favors you in the lottery *in*addition* to winning the block reward. | 19:20 |
| bsm1175321 | No one should be using the block hash as a source of randomness. | 19:20 |
| bsm1175321 | A lot of Ethereum contracts are... :-( | 19:20 |
| bsm1175321 | A similar mechanism was used in amiller's Honey Badger paper... | 19:22 |
| kanzure | rusty: i remember this paper but not the title or any of the details that would let me find it. sorry. | 19:22 |
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| kanzure | no wait, i am lying | 19:23 |
| kanzure | "Malleability of the blockchain's entropy" https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/370.pdf | 19:23 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} bsm: https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1015.pdf "on bitcoin as a public randomness source" | 19:23 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} ah nice | 19:23 |
| rusty | bsm117532: yes, that's close to "mutually untrusted parties provide hashes", but then they can withhold if they don't like the result, so you also need them to be timelock puzzles AFAICT. | 19:24 |
| bsm1175321 | kanzure: I can't believe that's worth of an article...I would have thought it totally obvious... | 19:24 |
| rusty | kanzure, MRL-Relay thanks! | 19:24 |
| rusty | bsm1175321: it's nice to have something to point at though. | 19:25 |
| bsm1175321 | rusty: amiller claimed to have a solution to the missing-contributor problem in his honey badger paper. | 19:25 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} np | 19:25 |
| rusty | bsm1175321: ah? Looks at amiller... | 19:25 |
| bsm1175321 | via threshold signatures. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | "The honey badger of BFT protocols" https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fe7a/d978257898dba1dd8c160672237f5f8c6a26.pdf | 19:26 |
| bsm1175321 | AFAICT it's the same as Shamir's Secret Sharing... | 19:26 |
| bsm1175321 | So you need a secure multiparty computation to set up the secret sharing... | 19:27 |
| rusty | Hmm.... | 19:28 |
| bsm1175321 | Honestly this issue has been blocking me for some time...DPoS uses a hash-and-reveal mechanism to choose the next block creator, but can't tolerate a loss of any participant, and loss of participants is gameable. | 19:28 |
| bsm1175321 | (DPoS = delegated Proof of Stake a la BitsharesX) | 19:29 |
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| bsm1175321 | The existence of a SMPC system for the setup may be more than I'm willing to assume... but maybe I didn't fully understand amiller's idea. | 19:30 |
| bsm1175321 | I think this is the Asynchronous Common Subset (ACS) primitive in that paper, section 4.4. | 19:35 |
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| bsm1175321 | It strikes me that a Honey Badger-like implementation, combined with a PoW system, provides a way to couple real-world assets into a system. The problem with leader-like systems (PBFT, PAXOS, HoneyBadger, etc) is that they don't represent real-world value in a cryptographic way. The UTXO set might as well be the attendance list for a 3-year old's birthday party. | 20:44 |
| bsm1175321 | Absent PoW, one must rely on trusted parties to couple real-world value into the system (because all classical existing real-world value exists because of attestations by trusted parties -- governments, banks, etc). | 20:45 |
| bsm1175321 | Such an idea entirely divorces PoW from the consensus process, and makes it only a proof-of-value... | 20:45 |
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| bsm1175321 | That makes Satoshi's algorithm a conflation of THREE things (I used to think it was two): (1) a RNG to select the next state (block producer), (2) an incentive to update the state, and (3) a means to couple real-world value into the crypto-asset. A Honey Badger + PoW would be 1+3 with (2) implicit -- anyone participating in either 1 or 3 already has an incentive to update the state... | 20:49 |
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| mr_burdell | can you verify that something is a timelock puzzle? what if someone uses random data instead of a valid timelock puzzle? | 21:03 |
| mr_burdell | you wouldn't know until it's too late, right? | 21:03 |
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| bsm1175321 | The idea behind Honey Badger (and most CS literature on the subject) is not to use time at all. It's not something that is agreed upon by all parties, nor cryptographically proveable. | 21:16 |
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| bsm1175321 | That said, I'm having dreams of defining "network time" using a crypto-currency. It would drift WRT "real" time, but who cares? As long as consensus marches forward linearly... | 21:25 |
| amiller | hi | 21:27 |
| amiller | this threshold signature thing isn't new in honey badger | 21:27 |
| amiller | threshold signatures have been used to make "common coins" for a while | 21:27 |
| amiller | common coin is basically a stream of random values that get released one at a time, when the parties release them | 21:27 |
| amiller | here's maybe the first https://eprint.iacr.org/2000/034.pdf | 21:28 |
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| amiller | but yeah, needing to do SMPC setup is complicated... | 21:29 |
| amiller | that's sometimes also called "distributed key generation" | 21:29 |
| amiller | http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.216.7018&rep=rep1&type=pdf here's a good protocol i thin | 21:30 |
| amiller | "Distributed Key Generation for the Internet" | 21:31 |
| amiller | bsm117532, this is not generic smpc, but rather a really specific protocol for setting up parameters for a threshold crypto scheme | 21:32 |
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