| --- Log opened Wed May 11 00:00:02 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Wed May 11 2016 | ||
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| funkenstein_ | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1467410.msg14807275 | 06:07 |
|---|---|---|
| c0rw1n | cute | 06:11 |
| funkenstein_ | thanks :) possibly of interest re: yesterday's 500 EUR note discussion | 06:12 |
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| funkenstein_ | the public coin / private coin distinction continues to get way to little airtime | 06:13 |
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| r0ach | which is why I made a thread calling IOTA a permissioned ledger extortion scheme | 06:19 |
| r0ach | unprofitable PoW (at least in the case of IOTA) is not an actual decentralized currency, just like PoS | 06:20 |
| funkenstein_ | lol nice :) link? | 06:20 |
| r0ach | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414866.0 | 06:20 |
| funkenstein_ | even a permissioned ledger is still publicly viewable | 06:20 |
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| kanzure | .wik ulam spiral | 07:03 |
| EmmyNoether | "The Ulam spiral or prime spiral (in other languages also called the Ulam cloth) is a simple method of visualizing the prime numbers that reveals the apparent tendency of certain quadratic polynomials to generate unusually large numbers of primes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam_spiral | 07:03 |
| yoleaux | "The Ulam spiral or prime spiral (in other languages also called the Ulam cloth) is a simple method of visualizing the prime numbers that reveals the apparent tendency of certain quadratic polynomials to generate unusually large numbers of primes." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam_spiral | 07:03 |
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| kanzure | who's bot is that other one | 07:04 |
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| * funkenstein_ wonders if numbers below "sloane's gap" would show a pattern on such a spiral | 07:09 | |
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| bsm117532 | r0ach: I wouldn't worry about permissioning, Iota doesn't have any kind of consensus or UTXO set...it's entirely unworkable. | 08:51 |
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| funkenstein_ | out of curiosity what was the 2nd coin "from russia" referred to in the OP of that thread? | 09:03 |
| r0ach | ethereum | 09:03 |
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| Taek | bsm117532, rusty: there's been discussions before about making a lottery using blokc hashes | 09:40 |
| Taek | The general idea being that you could get -ev mining that way, as people with gambling habits are okay playing -ev games | 09:41 |
| Taek | I'm pretty sure you can get a full 32 bytes of entropy from a mined bitcoin block, with the one caveat that miners can opt to burn 25btc and re-roll, though due to competition there's a chance the re-roll won't succeed | 09:43 |
| Taek | well, and if you get 51% hashrate you can re-roll as many times as you want | 09:43 |
| Taek | also, the cost of re-rolling reduces as we switch from coinbase heavy subsidies to fee heavy subsidies, as you can reuse the same txns | 09:44 |
| Taek | It would be pretty easy I think to structure a lottery that pays out much heavier for outlier lucky blocks (1-in-1000) in such a way that it's always against your interest to withhold blocks | 09:45 |
| funkenstein_ | i built block-roulette.com using block hashes for entropy | 09:50 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: the number of bytes of entropy in the block hash is a function of the lottery reward. It should not be relied upon in this manner. | 09:52 |
| Taek | bsm117532: I don't understand what you are saying there. Getting a block hash with low entropy is only possible with an excessive amount of work. You can't just find one that way | 09:59 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: it doesn't matter how you evaluate the bits of the block hash. For a large enough expected winnings, I will just withhold blocks for which I'm not the winner. | 10:03 |
| Taek | you can structure the lottery such that withholding a block always results in lower actual return | 10:07 |
| Taek | for example, pay $100 for normal block, $150 for 1-in-4 block, $100,000 for 1-in-25,000 block | 10:07 |
| Taek | there's no reason to withhold a normal block there | 10:08 |
| Taek | you still get paid, and you still have the same chance of finding a 1-in-25,000 block | 10:08 |
| bsm117532 | You'll never know I withheld a block... | 10:09 |
| Taek | true, but why would you ever do that? | 10:09 |
| bsm117532 | Because my expectation value from lottery winnings is larger than the block reward. | 10:10 |
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| kanzure | @bramc: we need way better command-line torrenting tools. i know you're watching. | 10:22 |
| bsm117532 | Block-hashes-as-entropy changes the game theory for miners. They should evaluate the expected block reward plus the expectation value of lotteries they win with the block they mine. (And there may be multiple lotteries) | 10:23 |
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| Taek | The idea is that the two would be intertwined, such that you get a single reward which scales as you have luckier hashes | 10:43 |
| Taek | if there's a third party lottery that's using some other system it does change the dynamic | 10:43 |
| Taek | but you can't prohibit that type of lottery anyway | 10:43 |
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| bsm117532 | You can loudly proclaim that such lotteries break the incentive model and may break the system they run on, so don't do it. But no you can't strictly prohibit it... The other type of lottery you mention is precisely what the block reward is, already. | 10:48 |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 12 00:00:12 2016 | ||
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