2016-05-12.log

--- Log opened Thu May 12 00:00:12 2016
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lmatteisrelating my consensus questions using CAPTCHAs from a couple days ago, here's some interesting research i found if anybody's interested: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/145.pdf13:54
lmatteishas anybody heard of that HumanCoin?13:55
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nshthere is no future worth pursuing that involves people solving more captchas15:27
nshattempt no landing there15:27
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gmaxwellsomehow the image of apes throwing bones is fitting.15:29
c0rw1nno : *that* might hit something edible15:29
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bsm1175321lmatteis: I'm of the opinion that identifying pieces of meat is a losing proposition.  Siamese twins exist and so do software agents/bots, and both legitimately have a right to exist and/or do my bidding.20:40
bsm1175321This world is full of "identity" which needs to be factorized into separable problems: meat identification; default risk; social evaluation; etc.20:42
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bsm1175321lmatteis: So you need to more clearly identify the problem you're trying to solve, by identifying humans...20:43
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kanzurealso, what's so great about humans?20:45
kanzurerhetorical question do not answer20:45
bsm1175321kanzure: cephalopods are tastier.20:45
kanzurespeak for yourself.20:45
smoothinfinitesimally more on topic, it still doesn't solve the problem with replay20:45
bsm1175321And should we deny them rights?20:45
kanzureanyway, eventually people will have to get over the fact that not all humanoids have identity- a bunch will be emulations running around in software20:46
kanzurewith fiat-shamir key sharing schemes to keep things in check or something20:46
* kanzure handwaves20:46
bsm1175321smooth: That's an interesting point...but I suppose it's easy enough to change a captcha by one bit so as to change it's hash?20:46
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smoothbsm1175321: the problem is that one human can solve one captcha that opens 1000 different locks20:47
smootheven assuming human solving is possible and matters20:47
bsm1175321kanzure: Humans are not great, nor identifiable.  See my Siamese twins example...squish hard enough and one becomes two...20:48
bsm1175321morbid, I agree, but a digression...20:48
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bsm1175321"Identity" is an illusion.  There are only a couple of interesting problems to solve: (1) do you hold the same private keys as the entity that visited my site as last time? (2) Has someone with lower risk evaluation than your own in attested to you regarding your default risk?  (3) <insert problem here>20:53
kanzurenumber the third one is "convincing everyone else that this list is sufficient"20:53
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bsm1175321Sufficient for what?  If you haven't specified the problem you're solving, you're probably using "identity" as a proxy for an entirely different problem that would be better solved in an entirely different way...21:10
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smooth 22:37
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lmatteissmooth: which problem of replay?23:42
smoothlmatteis: the most efficient way to solve a captcha is to reuse it on another service23:46
lmatteisthe paper says they were able to find a way to generate captchas, without the computer itself knowing what it generated (via obfuscation)23:47
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lmatteisin that sense, i can generate on my computer a proof that i am a human, without a trusted third party23:48
lmatteisthat's pretty interesting if you ask me23:48
smoothas far as i can tell they dont prove that at all, they just prove that the computer that generated it didn't itself jump right to the answer23:51
smoothbeyond that, all the existing captcha failure modes exist23:51
lmatteisyou're talking about AI advancements?23:53
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smoothfor example, sure23:53
smoothnot even advancements necessarily, maybe just people who have better AI than you know about23:53
smoothi guess you could call that advancements in a way though23:54
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lmatteisright, their main argument is that there will be a *gap* between AI and humans for still a long time23:54
lmatteisalso their argument that a crypto based on this proof of human work will actually generate employment as people are hired to solve captchas23:55
lmatteisquite fascinating23:56
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r0achsounds horrible23:59
--- Log closed Fri May 13 00:00:13 2016

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