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| Taek | <sipa> the problem with federations isn't so much that they are controlled by a small number of people (that's no different from today.'s miners)... but that fedrrations are hard to keep anonymous :) | 04:54 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | Another thing that I really like about POW is that it's easy for new parties to force their way in. Nobody can block access to a miner, the miner just needs hashrate | 04:54 |
| Taek | though that's a sword which cuts both ways | 04:55 |
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| maaku | Taek: indeed, that's the sole purpose of proof of work :) | 05:17 |
| maaku | to provide a dynamic signer set | 05:17 |
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| maaku | but it comes with huuuge costs, so you better really *need* dynamic signer sets for proof of work to make sense | 05:18 |
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| waxwing | technically isn't it anonymous/permissionless as well as dynamic? you could come up with a dynamic/changing set of signers in a permissioned system (e.g one permissioned signer authorizes another) | 06:16 |
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| Taek | also, it's expensive to rewrite history. It's conceivable to think of a dynamic membership system which features costless alternate histories. | 06:21 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 06:32 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Fri Oct 30 00:53:34 2015] | 06:32 | |
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| [ CrazyTruthYakDDS] [ lmatteis ] [ Tiraspol ] | 06:32 | |
| [ crescendo ] [ Logicwax ] [ trippysa1mon ] | 06:32 | |
| [ CryptoAi ] [ luke-jr ] [ tucenaber ] | 06:32 | |
| [ d9b4bef9 ] [ luny ] [ unlord ] | 06:32 | |
| [ da2ce7_mobile ] [ lysobit- ] [ veleiro ] | 06:32 | |
| [ dabura667 ] [ maaku ] [ wallet42 ] | 06:32 | |
| [ Darknes ] [ Madars ] [ wangchun ] | 06:32 | |
| [ davec ] [ malte- ] [ warptangent ] | 06:32 | |
| [ devrandom ] [ mappum ] [ warren ] | 06:32 | |
| [ dgenr8 ] [ mariorz ] [ waxwing ] | 06:32 | |
| [ digitalmagus ] [ markus-k ] [ whiteunicorn___] | 06:32 | |
| [ dignork ] [ MaxSan_ ] [ windsok ] | 06:32 | |
| [ DougieBot5000 ] [ Meeh ] [ wiz ] | 06:32 | |
| [ droark ] [ metric ] [ wizkid057 ] | 06:32 | |
| [ e0 ] [ meZee ] [ wpalczynski ] | 06:32 | |
| [ e4xit ] [ mhanne ] [ wumpus ] | 06:32 | |
| [ Eliel_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ xaptah ] | 06:32 | |
| [ Emcy ] [ mkarrer ] [ xeon-enouf ] | 06:32 | |
| [ EmmyNoether ] [ morcos ] [ yang ] | 06:32 | |
| [ epscy ] [ mountaingoat ] [ Ylbam ] | 06:32 | |
| [ eragmus ] [ mr_burdell ] [ yoleaux ] | 06:32 | |
| [ espes__ ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ yorick ] | 06:32 | |
| [ Expanse ] [ Muis ] [ zmanian__ ] | 06:32 | |
| [ face ] [ muuqwaul ] [ zwischenzug ] | 06:32 | |
| [ fluffypony ] [ Myagui ] [ zxzzt ] | 06:32 | |
| [ forrestv ] [ nanotube ] | 06:32 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 242 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 241 normal] | 06:32 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Tue Feb 26 07:24:47 2013 | 06:32 | |
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| nsh | Taek, in how many of these costless alternate histories do i get free lunches? | 07:20 |
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| bsm117532 | PoW has another use: it bootstraps value into an otherwise valueless system. I conjecture that without a federation to maintain a peg to external value, or PoW, any system (such as PoS) could never rise in value above the noise of people buying and selling shit just for shits. Without one of the two, it's just a database, and a row in a database isn't worth anything, no matter how it's signed... | 19:27 |
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| othe | maybe in a monetary system but there are really good use cases for distributed ledgers with immutable records | 19:36 |
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| bsm117532 | It's only immutable to the cost of mutating it. PoS or any version of hash-chains can be created at near-zero cost. The attack is not to reverse recorded data, but to create uncertainty by creating many versions of the truth. | 19:46 |
| othe | thats not really an issue if companies run federated nodes imho, they can trust their own data and discard everything that disagrees | 19:47 |
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| bsm117532 | Note above I said a federation also solves this -- in the case of data immutability by not allowing arbitrary outside input. | 20:01 |
| bsm117532 | It's PoS I'm trashing here... | 20:02 |
| othe | good, go on :P | 20:02 |
| bsm117532 | Not that I'm a fan of federations... :-P | 20:02 |
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| othe | pow also splits the power, like we have in our juristical system in pos its all controlled by one group | 20:02 |
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