| --- Log opened Sun Jun 05 00:00:20 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Jun 05 2016 | ||
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| kanzure | "Secure outsourcing of circuit manufacturing" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/527.pdf | 12:50 |
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| bsm117532 | Very interesting kanzure. If IC manufacturing could be fully commoditized, this would enable distributed manufacturing of ASIC mining equipment, so that manufacturing didn't represent a 51% attack risk. | 13:38 |
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| kanzure | azonenberg was working on homebrew transistor fabrication for a long time. the tradeoff is that you have to do low-resolution stuff only, which impacts performance.. and also handle chemicals. *shrug* what's the worst that coud happen. | 13:43 |
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| bsm117532 | I'm afraid homebrew will never compete with 14nm billion dollar fabs. Therefore it's best to commoditize the fabs. | 13:59 |
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| vyvojar | kanzure: is tl;dr: tamper detection through obfuscation? | 14:21 |
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| jtimon | bsm117532: how can you predict what can compete with what? are you claiming that you can predict demand? | 15:56 |
| jtimon | talking about wild precitions: the market will demand non-backdoored hardwardware or humans will become extinct | 15:59 |
| bsm117532 | jtimon: I'm not prediction, I'm stating an obvious fact that current fabs cost in the billions. | 15:59 |
| jtimon | bsm117532: ack | 15:59 |
| jtimon | well, no | 15:59 |
| bsm117532 | If it could be done on a small scale cheaper, Intel/Samsung/GlobalFoundries/TSMC would be doing it. | 16:00 |
| jtimon | that's if you want to do things "right", you can also do things "cheap" | 16:00 |
| jtimon | exactly, it's about scale | 16:00 |
| jtimon | closed hardware designs greatly benefit big scale players | 16:01 |
| bsm117532 | I'd bet a hobbyist could set up a small scale fab with ~micron feature sizes for a few million. Now how are they supposed to compete with the speed and scale of the billion dollar 14nm fabs? | 16:01 |
| jtimon | people could demand free hardware, and that may save us from the 2012 holocaust, or something | 16:02 |
| jtimon | free as in free speach, of course | 16:03 |
| bsm117532 | Open ASICs for Bitcoin or other currency would be one of the best things to happen. | 16:03 |
| jtimon | well, I also like those "re-design-the-circuit-without-buying-another-one" things, how were they called? | 16:04 |
| bsm117532 | FPGA | 16:04 |
| jtimon | yeah, though, as all swords... | 16:05 |
| jtimon | well, actually not all swords have two sides, but I don't think there's a FPGA design that won't turn against you if you are stupid and let someone else control it | 16:07 |
| bsm117532 | Same goes for not reviewing every line of source code you compile though... | 16:07 |
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| jtimon | yep, which brings us back to determinisic builds | 16:08 |
| kanzure | oh that's easy, we just need to emulate a billion brains and have them manually review each line of source code, then hash their brain states from every step and then uh... um... | 16:08 |
| jtimon | can we do that in hardware? | 16:08 |
| kanzure | even with deterministic builds you cannot guarantee that a human looked at each line (or that the person who looked at each line was properly evaluating against all known security concerns) | 16:09 |
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| jtimon | no, the solution is to reduce the code to a few lines and 10 or so paradigms | 16:09 |
| jtimon | kanzure: you raise a very good point: in the end, you have to trust other people to some extend to trust your own system | 16:12 |
| kanzure | i hope not | 16:12 |
| jtimon | well, I wish not, but that's the state of things for me | 16:12 |
| jtimon | I trust libsecp256k1, but I haven't read it | 16:14 |
| jtimon | just because I trust the people that tell me they have reviewed or written it | 16:15 |
| bsm117532 | https://github.com/secworks/sha256 | 16:16 |
| bsm117532 | Open source sha256 verilog code | 16:16 |
| kanzure | oh weird i thought you would have reviewed libsecp256k1 | 16:16 |
| jtimon | kanzure: I have reiviewed some parts of the API | 16:17 |
| jtimon | but not thte guts | 16:17 |
| jtimon | sipa has explained me some of the guts, but many times I demanded higher level for the explanation | 16:18 |
| vyvojar | bsm117532: isnt there something pipelined too? this is low gate. | 16:19 |
| jtimon | I thought I always said clearly that I wasn't reviewing crpyto guts for now | 16:19 |
| bsm117532 | vyvojar: Don't know. Link? | 16:19 |
| bsm117532 | I'm looking at some of these FPGAs which let you add DDR4 RAM...seems to me that "memory-hard" PoWs will fall to FPGAs soon enough. | 16:20 |
| jtimon | oh, who would have thought that "hardware-will-lose-this-time" wouldn't work... | 16:21 |
| jtimon | hardware is just more efficient software (but the more special the more expensive) | 16:22 |
| jtimon | I say, gamers are special enough, let's use their hardware | 16:23 |
| jtimon | many cores | 16:23 |
| vyvojar | bsm117532: imo not soon enough, but eventually | 16:29 |
| vyvojar | as long the miners are not thread bound on a gpu, but truly only by gddr5 throughput. | 16:29 |
| bsm117532 | The major cost of GPUs is not RAM, it's the GPU, and these memory-hard algos keep the GPU pegged. So it seems there's room for an FPGA to be faster than a GPU. Also it's a small incremental cost to keep several copies of the memory-hard data structure. | 16:31 |
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| vyvojar | bsm117532: cpus get faster than ram. all. the. time. | 16:34 |
| vyvojar | eventually it decouples | 16:34 |
| vyvojar | especially things like eth or litecoin are doing seem to be bandwidth bound. compute stays idle, all threads stay blocked until next cacheline of random accesses is filled. | 16:35 |
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| bsm117532 | I've always wanted to fool with FPGAs... --> ##fpga | 16:38 |
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| vyvojar | bsm117532: re verilog sha256, im finding dozens on github. most seem to be descended from https://github.com/fpgaminer/Open-Source-FPGA-Bitcoin-Miner | 16:49 |
| * vyvojar is fairly ignorant of gotchas when it comes to porting vhdl altera -> asic | 16:50 | |
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| maaku | bsm117532: memory hard PoW has already fallen to ASICs, no? | 16:55 |
| bsm117532 | maaku: Not that I'm aware. Link? | 16:57 |
| pigeons | maybe he means "x11" | 16:58 |
| maaku | bsm117532: https://www.google.com/search?q=scrypt+asic | 16:58 |
| pigeons | anyway, as discussed here years ago, the small energy effiency of even an otherwise ineffienct asic, which can of course be made for anything, basically wins | 16:59 |
| pigeons | but yeah they have asics for "dash" etc now | 17:00 |
| maaku | pigeons: although in this case asics for "memory-hard" systems actually have a greater speedup vs GPUs than sha256d | 17:00 |
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| maaku | because they use more circuit area and therefore the cooling situation is better | 17:00 |
| bsm117532 | Well, I'm looking at Ethereum's Hashimoto and ZCash's generalized-birthday algorithms. | 17:01 |
| pigeons | ethereum will acknowledge the ony reason they dont have asics is because they declared they will switch algorithms if one comes before they implement proof of stake | 17:02 |
| bsm117532 | They will not implement PoS. I'll take a monumental bet on that. | 17:03 |
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| pigeons | for a while they would add one little tweak each time sergio lerner would mention dagger issues, then everyone decided it wasnt worth the bother | 17:04 |
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| pigeons | i remember a tim hughes audit or something and buterin said it didnt matter because they will switch to proof of stake | 17:05 |
| bsm117532 | Switching to PoS represents a fundamental misunderstanding of why PoW coins have value. They will implode if they do. | 17:06 |
| pigeons | yes most people but ethereum agree with that | 17:06 |
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| bsm117532 | Well, people that hang out here. ;-) | 17:10 |
| pigeons | https://gist.github.com/CJentzsch/c78768f9837afb8eef74 | 17:17 |
| pigeons | so i guess they'll just fork to remove that exponential diff increase | 17:17 |
| pigeons | https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/commit/71d32f54f70917c53fd3a691cface3bc73ffa1b7 | 17:18 |
| bsm117532 | WTF is that? | 17:21 |
| pigeons | that was added to force a change to proof of stake | 17:21 |
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| pigeons | by making it pretty much not possible to mine | 17:21 |
| bsm117532 | hmmm when does it trigger? | 17:21 |
| pigeons | because their "social contract" weak and contradictory and confusing as it is, is that they will switch to proof of stake | 17:21 |
| pigeons | it has already triggered, it was block 200,000 i believe | 17:22 |
| pigeons | it just will not be very noticable for a few more months | 17:22 |
| bsm117532 | Thanks, will have to play with this. Also, figure out how to short ETH... | 17:22 |
| bsm117532 | That is so incredibly foolish. My mind assplode. | 17:24 |
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| smooth | x11 is not and never was supposed to be memory hard, it is just 11 ordinary hash functions | 20:27 |
| smooth | scrypt's memory hardness was severely flawed | 20:27 |
| smooth | (linear TMTO) | 20:27 |
| smooth | im not aware of ASICs for any other pow alg | 20:27 |
| smooth | bsm117532> Switching to PoS represents a fundamental misunderstanding of why PoW coins have value. <= but i dont think Ethereum was ever really envisioned to be a pow coin | 20:28 |
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| smooth | PoW was done as a temporary measure because PoS wasn't ready yet | 20:28 |
| smooth | i have been watching with interest to see if the development of a significant-size ethereum economy results in any | 20:28 |
| smooth | pushback on the plan to switch, but i haven't see it at all. They are still full speed ahead on PoS afaict | 20:29 |
| bsm117532 | smooth: Don't care. PoS is a fantasy. I'm happy they've added cryptographic transactions and a state machine to Oracle. They've misunderstood the ETH value proposition of their crowdsale (or maybe fully understood it!) | 20:29 |
| bsm117532 | AFAICT I'm the only one screaming against the truck running full speed into the wall. I'm calculating the optimal time to short ETH as we speak... | 20:30 |
| smooth | bsm117532: im just reporting what i observe, with interest. if you have issues with their approach, tell them | 20:30 |
| bsm117532 | I have. | 20:30 |
| smooth | yes im aware | 20:31 |
| bsm117532 | There's rather too much hero worship over there. Every time I bring it up, people haven't thought about it at all and are trusting Vitalik/Vlaad/Gavin to Do The Right Thing. (and maybe they will...) | 20:32 |
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| bsm117532 | I've seen the notion that "I can print money" poison people's minds, in a lot of different (and usually good-intentioned) ways in this space. | 20:34 |
| midnightmagic | Well, hope springs eternal.. like the hope in me that people will start being on-topic one day. | 20:35 |
| bsm117532 | +1 midnightmagic. I do think PoW vs PoS is on-topic, but I'm not offering any new insights there. | 20:36 |
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| midnightmagic | :) | 20:50 |
| smooth | Does the ethereum rhetoric that it isn't money but fuel for a world compuer make any logical sense at all? | 20:51 |
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| bsm117532 | No. Especially when they intend to decouple it from real world value and it becomes just another row in just another boring database. (My computer's fuel is a lot cheaper than ETH) | 20:53 |
| smooth | It seems similar to the argument that values Bitcoin based on tx fees and ability to trasport value electronically | 20:53 |
| smooth | setting aside proof of stake even, would eth work if no one ever valued it as external money | 20:54 |
| bsm117532 | There's a disconnect occurring in this community that "a number over here" is worth something while "a number over there" is worth nothing. They're both fucking numbers. Yes, transactions are good and all, but businesses are modifying numbers in databases at marginal cost all over the world. | 20:55 |
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| bsm117532 | smooth: you've used that word. "value". Try and rephrase your question without using it. | 20:55 |
| smooth | bsm117532: external utility then. Assuming people only recognize the token as fuel, but good for nothing else | 20:57 |
| bsm117532 | Can you quantify that? | 20:58 |
| smooth | i dont understand the question | 20:59 |
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| bsm117532 | smooth: quantify people are willing to pay in real-world value for that which they "only recognize [...] as fuel, but good for nothing else" | 21:00 |
| smooth | it would be because the World Computer does something useful i suppose, and they want to to use it | 21:00 |
| bsm117532 | so quantify what that is and how much you'd be willing to pay? | 21:01 |
| smooth | I have no idea what the World Computer is useful for. It isn't clear that actual use cases have been identified | 21:01 |
| bsm117532 | It costs nothing to fork Ethereum and make another "world computer" for which I don't have to pay into it in advance. | 21:01 |
| smooth | That seems implausible. It has a cost to operate just like the original | 21:02 |
| bsm117532 | So either it's (a) all speculation or (b) rational decision based on current price and availability of electricity and mining hardware. | 21:02 |
| bsm117532 | smooth: The cost is marginal. I'm running the computer anyway. Running a node costs next to nothing. | 21:02 |
| smooth | Running your own node does not serve the same function as a world computer that is widely used an recognized | 21:03 |
| smooth | there is a network effect there. I see no difference between that and forking your own bitcoin and mining it at diff 1 | 21:03 |
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| bsm117532 | A set of latecomers wants to run a "world computer". Do they (a) pay exorbitant prices for coins and join an existing network? Or do they (b) poo-pooh that network and start their own, at marginal cost to themselves, encouraging other latecomers to join? | 21:05 |
| smooth | i guess it depends if there is actual utility | 21:05 |
| bsm117532 | What utility does the first network have that the second does not? | 21:05 |
| smooth | it has a network which includes its existing users. Large networks tend to be worth more than small ones | 21:06 |
| bsm117532 | If transactions, or the "world computer" are the utility, then it costs nothing to duplicate, and is worth no expenditure of mine. | 21:06 |
| bsm117532 | Cheaper networks tend to spread faster than expensive networks. | 21:06 |
| smooth | Consider The DAO which is a smart contract that proports to behave as a decentralized investment fund | 21:07 |
| smooth | If I feel this fund is useful and i want to interact with it, I have to use the same network | 21:07 |
| bsm117532 | It's worth nothing when ETH itself tanks. Its value has an anchor in the real world. What is that anchor? | 21:07 |
| smooth | I think large networks have value unto themselves. The value isn't infinite; they can be displaced, but it is significant | 21:08 |
| bsm117532 | Don't use "value". Seriously. I challenge you. ;-) I can't pay my rent with that, and if I'm an investor, it's worth nothing if I can't pay the rent of those i'm investing in... | 21:09 |
| smooth | re. The DAO I think we can largely ignore the fact that the "investment funds" of The DAO happen to be held in ETH. That is something that has been debated | 21:09 |
| smooth | You could imagine a smart contract holding value in BTC or even USD but the contract itself is hosted on the Ethereum network | 21:10 |
| smooth | bsm117532: if access to the network is something people want then they will trade rent for it | 21:11 |
| bsm117532 | Well the issue becomes: If it holds USD that's an IOU and what are the circumstances surrounding settling into actual USD? If it's BTC, how is that BTC held, since Ethereum itself can't hold private keys. Again, how do I settle back into BTC? (Since the computer itself is value-less) | 21:11 |
| smooth | It is done by appointing agents | 21:11 |
| bsm117532 | smooth: I'd be happy to trade my landlord rows in my database for rent. How much do you want to bet I can't make that happen within the next 50 years? ;-) | 21:11 |
| smooth | rows in your database are worth about the same as coins on your own bitcoin fork | 21:12 |
| bsm117532 | exactamundo. Also, I have a torrent file that is replicated among 1000 nodes, if that's where you're heading. | 21:13 |
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| bsm117532 | smooth: I'll cut to the chase: all value is relative. There are markets, and there are fundamentals, and they are not the same. A market without fundamentals is 100% speculation, and I'm happy to sell you a bridge, or tulip bulbs. Without fundamentals, any crypto-currency is a zero-value bubble. The fundamental here is the *spent* value of mining, below which miners will be unwilling to sell (so *not* speculati | 21:15 |
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