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| pistdov | https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/741796953768513536 | 18:07 |
|---|---|---|
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| kanzure | wrong channel | 18:23 |
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| Taek | I am hoping that there can be some discussion about miner centralization. | 23:02 |
| Taek | To me, it seems like the biggest problem currently is related to economies of scale, particularly as far as manufacturing goes | 23:02 |
| Taek | But there's also a research component that makes it difficult for smaller miners to compete | 23:03 |
| bsm117532 | Are single manufacturers gaining the output of ASIC factories and turning them into Bitcoin mining farms, at present? | 23:03 |
| Taek | As far as I can tell, both of those factors outweigh most everything else | 23:03 |
| Taek | bsm117532: bitfury is a good example of this, I believe all of their farms are built from their cutting edge hardware | 23:04 |
| Taek | I am further wondering if this could be mitigated somewhat by leveraging hardware which is not inherently wasteful | 23:05 |
| bsm117532 | So I've been evolving towards a weird idea...imagine a PBFT (let's call it Honey, @amiller) that accepts transactions of a special kind that represent an expenditure of real-world assets (aka PoW). | 23:05 |
| Taek | and what I mean by that, is that mining ASICs have exactly one use | 23:05 |
| Taek | but, something like storage harddrives have multiple uses, and therefore reasons to be puchased and 'decentralized' beyond merely mining | 23:05 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: I think the only solution for the Bitcoin ecosystem is ASICs that cannot be moved to another coin. That destroys the security guarantees of the system. | 23:06 |
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| bsm117532 | I had some conversations with zooko in Hong Kong about this regarding Zcash. | 23:06 |
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| Taek | being a minority hashrate is definintely a danger | 23:07 |
| bsm117532 | They've chosen a memory-hard algorithm, which means that Ethereum hardware can/will be reallocated to mine Zcash. | 23:07 |
| bsm117532 | One or the other will be a minority. | 23:07 |
| Taek | but if you are majority, another coin would need to fund enough incentive to get 51% of the hashrate off of your coin | 23:07 |
| Taek | right. It's bad to be the minority, but I don't think it's similarly bad to be the majority | 23:07 |
| Taek | as long as the incentive remains | 23:07 |
| Taek | and barriers to collusion also remain | 23:08 |
| bsm117532 | I've been racking my brains for ways that hardware can be so "special purpose" but I keep coming back to the same conclusion: the only way to be truly secure is to couple your coin with ASIC manufacuring, probably using an open source design with many manufacturers. | 23:08 |
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| bsm117532 | Taek: Let's imagine two coins, and you know the amount of hashpower that could potentially be reallocated to your coin. A logical computation of "confirmation time" is infinite for the minority coin. | 23:09 |
| Taek | yes, but I'm talking about the majority coin | 23:10 |
| Taek | minority coins can defend themselves by picking a different algo and getting an ASIC out | 23:10 |
| bsm117532 | So the only way a coin is secure if there do not exist assets in the world that could be reallocated to perform a 51% attack... | 23:10 |
| Taek | well, they are still subject to the growing pains associated with getting multiple manufacturers that are all competitive | 23:10 |
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| bsm117532 | If I had to release a coin today, I'd do it in concert with VHDL for a reasonable miner chip. | 23:11 |
| Taek | well, or you make sure that at every step there's not enough incentive to reallocate those resources | 23:11 |
| Taek | attacking a coin still requires burning power | 23:11 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: how do you make there not be an incentive to reallocate resources? | 23:11 |
| Taek | don't have enough money worth of double spends | 23:12 |
| bsm117532 | ??? don't understand... | 23:12 |
| Taek | if it's going to cost $1,000 in electricity to attack a minority coin, the profits from such an attack need to be at least $1,000 or the attack doesn't make sense | 23:12 |
| Taek | barring vandalism, which might happen at the $1,000 range but probably not with larger sums of money | 23:13 |
| bsm117532 | Ok so there's hardware X that can compute Pow X at rate blah... and hardware Y that can compute hardware X at rate blahblah... The point of ASICs is to make the difference between X and Y an order of magnitude... | 23:13 |
| bsm117532 | In the big picture there's only a couple of resources: compute cycles/s, and storage. I'm struggling to come up with a third that could ever be an order of magnitude over something else... | 23:15 |
| Taek | Storage in many ways seems pretty attractive to me | 23:15 |
| bsm117532 | Which means only two coins ever could be secure. Let's call them Bitcoin and Ethereum (assuming they don't shoot themselves in the foot with Casper) | 23:15 |
| bsm117532 | I know it does Taek :-P | 23:16 |
| Taek | I meant as a method for securing consensus | 23:16 |
| Taek | I disagree that you can only have two coins which are secure. If the hardware is difficult enough to build, and is single-purpose, you can have as many coins as you have sufficiently unique hashing algorithms | 23:17 |
| Taek | well | 23:17 |
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| bsm117532 | Well there are several levels of "storage" which differ by orders of magnitude: L1 cache, L2 cache, DRAM, spinning rust. If each differs by an order of magnitude in capacity, then in principle each can secure a coin, in principle. | 23:17 |
| Taek | I guess at the end of the day it really does just come down to economic power and mobility | 23:17 |
| Taek | You can consider the entire global GDP as resources that could be reallocated to attacking Bitcoin | 23:17 |
| Taek | but it may take a year or two to build enough specialized hardware to actually pull off an attack | 23:18 |
| Taek | The difference between that and multi-coin GPU mining is the spin-up and spin-down time | 23:18 |
| bsm117532 | Taek: It's hard to estimate the "external threat", but at a protocol level, I'm working on a "high water mark" basis which defines the confirmation times, and the estimation of how secure your network is. (e.g. the highest hashrate you've ever seen -- which implies that hashrate is generally increasing) | 23:19 |
| bsm117532 | e.g. if the hashrate now is 0.1 but you previously saw it at 10, you know it's trivial for the 99% attacker to construct a new chain. Transactions should never be confirmed. | 23:20 |
| bsm117532 | Also, adjust your coin allocation accordingly... | 23:21 |
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| Taek | That's assuming that your coin is worth attacking still | 23:21 |
| Taek | if the valuation has dropped, or if the activity has dropped, etc, it may simply be more expensive to attack the coin than the reward is worth | 23:22 |
| bsm117532 | When confirmation times are conflated hashpower, we're stuck with that. | 23:24 |
| Taek | It's not trivial for the 99% attacker to build a new chain though | 23:25 |
| Taek | they still have to spend money to actually do it | 23:25 |
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| bsm117532 | Well, when your security parameter is 50%, and you know for an absolute fact that there exists an entity that is willing and capable of reallocating resources to provide > 50% of the currently observed hashpower...one should not in good conscience confirm any transactions. | 23:26 |
| Taek | I'm stuck on the 'is willing' part | 23:27 |
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| bsm117532 | So tie a function to 'is willing', and put it into your "confirmatoin" function. | 23:27 |
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| Taek | I can see an incentive to execute a 51% attack - you get 100% of the block rewards - except you have to commit at least as many resources as all your competitors combined, which means you're still spending more resources than your competitors think the mining is worth | 23:27 |
| bsm117532 | It's entirely possible to confirm transactions if "is willing" < 50% | 23:27 |
| bsm117532 | No asset exists in a vacuum. Miners will always reallocate their resources (if possible) among assets to maximize profits. | 23:28 |
| bsm117532 | At a protocol level, it's impossible to know the situation with respect to external assets. | 23:29 |
| bsm117532 | I'm really struggling to come up with a "third" mining function (aside from CPU -- Bitcoin and memory -- Ethereum). | 23:31 |
| Taek | short term memory and long term memory are effectively completely different resources | 23:31 |
| bsm117532 | Best I've been able to come up with is to wedge yourself into a particular niche of hardware that is super-efficient at mining your coin because of the size of L1/L2/memory/storage. | 23:31 |
| bsm117532 | exactly. | 23:32 |
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| bsm117532 | But there you're often a factor of 2, getting an order of magnitude is extremely difficult. | 23:32 |
| Taek | But like, sha2 and sha3 are also effectively entirely different resources. You need completely different hardware to efficiently do either | 23:33 |
| bsm117532 | Why? Because no one has put sha3 into an ASIC yet? | 23:33 |
| Taek | sha3 asics can't be pointed at the bitcoin network | 23:34 |
| Taek | if I have $1 billion in sha3 asics, it does nothing to help me 51% Bitcoin | 23:35 |
| -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:35 | |
| bsm117532 | Yes. So it seems to me that the optimal situation is to target a new hash function that is CPU, not memory-bound. | 23:35 |
| bsm117532 | A memory-bound function will always allow a cheap CPU with lots of memory to be retargeted to any memory-bound function. | 23:36 |
| -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 23:37 | |
| bsm117532 | In the beginning, there are no ASICs. But your coin is not secure until there are ASICs...and they're not all controlled by one entity... | 23:37 |
| Taek | well, there's some question as to whether you can create memory which can more efficiently handle a single function | 23:37 |
| bsm117532 | For memory-bound functions we're talking factors of 2...who cares. I need orders of magnitude. | 23:38 |
| Taek | are you sure that's the theoretical limit? What if there's some breakthrough in memristor technology? | 23:38 |
| bsm117532 | I make no claims about memristors, quantum computers, aliens, or dragons. | 23:39 |
| bsm117532 | At least one of those things might be real. | 23:39 |
| Taek | I don't know enough about the tech to know how big of an assumption it is to assume they don't exist given a $XXX million bounty | 23:40 |
| bsm117532 | Well, memristors exist, but are not practical. Quantum computers exist, but are confused, and not quantum (the biggest example is D-Wave which is an annealing, non-quantum process). No comment on the other two... | 23:41 |
| bsm117532 | In the quantum realm, entropy sucks... Time will tell. | 23:42 |
| bsm117532 | I *really* want to come up with a third option for mining. | 23:46 |
| Taek | Why? I hold the opinion that we really only want one blockchain | 23:49 |
| Taek | if all applications are using the same blockchain, they are reinforcing eachother | 23:49 |
| Taek | you can't reorg one of them without reorging all of them, which contains something of a MAD component | 23:49 |
| Taek | but it also just means that it takes more resources overall to mount an attack | 23:50 |
| Taek | and it also makes it more difficult to fully exploit the attack. It's one thing to double-spend Bitcoin. But if to get the full benefit of the attack you need to double spend Bitcoin, do a proof re-roll on Sia, deanonymize Monero, etc, then you're going to have a harder time mounting an attack | 23:51 |
| Taek | and if you are willing to give up SPV, it's pretty trivial to get everyone on the same blockchain by allowing arbitrary data in the transactions | 23:53 |
| --- Log closed Sun Jun 12 00:00:10 2016 | ||
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