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| shangzhou | off topic ?anyway FYI https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2016/000724.html | 00:40 |
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| othe | 1. april.... | 00:42 |
| gmaxwell | the paper talks a lot about the coefficient choice, it was still a little arbritary and the msft people in the ietf crypto research group don't like it and have favored another paramterization as a result. | 00:43 |
| gmaxwell | but the post is a joke response to a kind of foolish message (that ignored the disussion in the paper) | 00:43 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} shangzhou - somewhere else in that message chain you've linked tanja replies with :You also need tht the curve is cryptographically secure. | 06:04 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} All the best | 06:04 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} Please check out | 06:04 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/rigid.html | 06:04 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} Tanja | 06:04 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} after clicking that link you find the explanation for curve25519 parameter choices: Prime chosen "as close as possible to a power of 2" for efficiency reasons ("save time in field operations"). Prime chosen "slightly below 32k bits, for some k" for efficiency reasons ("no serious concerns regarding wasted space"). k=8 chosen for "a comfortable security | 06:05 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} level". 2^255-19 chosen above 2^255+95, 2^255-31, 2^254+79, 2^253+51, 2^253+39 "because 19 is smaller than 31, 39, 51, 79, 95". Montgomery curve shape y^2=x^3+Ax^2+x chosen for efficiency ("to allow extremely fast x-coordinate point operations"). (A-2)/4 selected as a small integer for efficiency ("to speed up the multiplication by (A-2)/4"). Curve and twist | 06:05 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} orders required to be {4*prime,8*prime} for security ("protect against various attacks ... here 4, 8 are minimal"). Primes required to be above 2^252 for security ("theoretical possibility of a user's secret key matching the prime"), ruling out A=358990 and A=464586. A=486662 chosen as smallest positive integer meeting these requirements. | 06:05 |
| MRL-Relay | {-shen} compare, for instance the parameter choices of, secp256k1: GLV curve with 256 bits and prime order group; prime and coefficients not fully explained but might be minimal | 06:07 |
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| r0ach | Anyone know if Peter Todd is affiliated with "Vericoin" still? I was looking at this Vericoin whitepaper trying to figure out how they plan to mix PoW and PoS and it wasn't explained well. | 11:30 |
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| r0ach | So I'm wondering if this is just a technobabble scam or if there is anything legit there | 11:30 |
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| fluffypony | r0ach: Vericoin != ViaCoin | 11:33 |
| r0ach | oh, sorry. I can't keep track of all these things | 11:38 |
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| bsm1175321 | https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15 | 12:48 |
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| bsm1175321 | Not news to anyone here... | 12:49 |
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| gmaxwell | Checkout this despiscable conduct by https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/742784655481569280 | 15:16 |
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| gmaxwell | despicable* | 15:17 |
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| gmaxwell | I've given Gun teh benefit of doubt in the past, reaching out to him when he's published misinformation like that; but it's clear to me now that he has an agenda. | 15:17 |
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| bsm1175321 | Don't take it personally gmaxwell. This is his other project if you're not aware: http://www.falcon-net.org/ | 15:52 |
| sipa | ha. | 15:52 |
| maaku | wat he totally stole freicoin's mascot | 15:53 |
| sipa | haha. | 15:54 |
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| smooth | only on topic to the extent that economic cluelessness being rampant in the crypto space is very dangerous but his post about DAO was a complete trainwreck | 15:57 |
| smooth | im not sure i could find a single paragraph without glaring errors | 15:57 |
| bsm1175321 | smooth: link? I can't keep up with crowdscamoftheday... :-/ | 15:58 |
| smooth | hackingdistributed | 15:58 |
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| smooth | http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/13/the-dao-can-turn-into-a-naturally-arising-ponzi/ | 15:58 |
| nickler | gmaxwell: he's a troll, always has been | 15:59 |
| sipa | i agree with the title | 16:00 |
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| sipa | i haven't read the article | 16:00 |
| smooth | sipa: i stand corrected, if the title counts as a paragraph :) | 16:01 |
| sipa | i've had useful interactions with him in the past though | 16:01 |
| smooth | hes not always wrong by any means. but as nickler said, sometimes the trolling is strong with this one | 16:03 |
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| instagibbs | he's sore about NG etc not being immediately picked up. oh well. | 16:39 |
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| * midnightmagic shrugs -- https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/397219415025934336 same ol' | 17:10 | |
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| sipa | midnightmagic: heh, never saw that | 17:15 |
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| midnightmagic | sipa: :) | 17:28 |
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| bsm117532- | So it's occurred to me several times that with Schnorr signatures, it's possible to combine all P2PKH transactions in a block. Does any existing currency do this? Monero? Dash? | 17:32 |
| bsm117532- | e.g. a single signature of witness data per block... | 17:33 |
| othe | dash is a plain bitcoin copy, theres no different crypto stuff used at all | 17:33 |
| othe | i dont think thats done by any of the cryptos at all | 17:34 |
| othe | we use some aggregated schnorr signatures in ringct but not in the context u mentioned tho | 17:39 |
| bsm117532- | Interesting... it reduces the P2PKH data to a single signature, making it extremely compact. | 17:40 |
| maaku | bsm116532 that would require an interactive step | 17:41 |
| bsm117532- | I was looking at Ethereum's transaction graphs today...95% of addresses are PKH, not contracts. Even there, most transactions are moving the underlying coin, not contracts... | 17:41 |
| bsm117532- | @maaku can you elaborate? | 17:42 |
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| maaku | With pairing crypto you can do it non interactively, and that is what OWAS is about | 17:42 |
| maaku | Bsm, how do you combine signatures of different messages? | 17:43 |
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| bsm117532- | What's OWAS? | 17:45 |
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| bsm117532- | Correct me if I'm wrong, but Schnorr signatures can be summed. | 17:46 |
| kanzure | one-way aggregatable signatures | 17:46 |
| kanzure | re: combining all P2PKH transactions in a block, this was documented at length in https://bitcoincore.org/logs/2016-05-zurich-meeting-notes.html | 17:47 |
| bsm117532- | Thanks kanzure's! I'll be back when I finish reading that... ;-) | 17:48 |
| kanzure | "block-level aggregation" | 17:50 |
| kanzure | (in that file) | 17:50 |
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| bsm117532- | Found it. Still don't know what OWAS is... | 17:52 |
| kanzure | another OWAS thing is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Increasing%20anonymity%20in%20bitcoin%20using%20one-way%20aggregatable%20signatures.pdf | 17:53 |
| gmaxwell | as maaku mentioned, schnorr aggregation requires interaction, it's a two phase protocol, first agree on the nonce, then form the signature. | 17:53 |
| bsm117532- | I wish I had been at this meeting... | 17:54 |
| gmaxwell | BLS signatures can do the same thing without interaction. | 17:54 |
| gmaxwell | all of that has been discussed in this channel and on bitcointalk before. | 17:54 |
| bsm117532- | @gmaxwell is it possible to take a well-known nonce (like last block hash) | 17:54 |
| gmaxwell | The _funny_ thing is that we measured the aggregation gain for existing transactions in the network, and found it not that much smaller than the maximum gain from all being aggregated. | 17:54 |
| bsm117532- | Yeah, I'm (relatively) new here. And won't set foot in bitcointalk... :-/ | 17:55 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532-: no, the nonce has to be secret or you reveal private keys. | 17:55 |
| gmaxwell | you can read bitcoin talk without posting there. | 17:55 |
| gmaxwell | and generally the technical subforum is pretty good | 17:55 |
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| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0 | 17:55 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=290971.0 | 17:56 |
| bsm117532- | Is revealing an aggregate privkey a vulnerability? Wouldn't it require all-but-1 colluding participants to exploit? | 17:56 |
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| gmaxwell | I think the figures we got were something like 40% gain assuming everything was aggregated vs 30% on the existing transation load. | 17:57 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532-: this is unrelated to aggregation, if I give you a DSA signature where you know the nonce (or even where you don't know it, but I produced another signature with the same nonce before) then you can immediately recover my private key. | 17:58 |
| gmaxwell | (or perhaps I should have said more general instead of unrelated.) | 17:58 |
| bsm117532- | @gmaxwell what additional assumptions go into that? The figure I saw the other day was ~87% P2PKH... | 17:58 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532-: 87% what? | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | are you saying 87% could be aggreated? the figure I gave is byte savings. | 18:00 |
| bsm117532- | OK then those numbers jive. I was extrapolating from 13% P2SH usage. | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | aggregation only avoids signatures, not the other bits of data in a transaction, so the byte savings is less than the total amount. | 18:01 |
| maaku | You'd still have to be signing the same thing, which different transactions or not | 18:01 |
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| gmaxwell | P2SH doesn't diminish the potential of aggregation gains, since most p2sh is multisig it increases it. | 18:01 |
| gmaxwell | s/most/virtually all/ | 18:01 |
| bsm117532- | Don't worry gmaxwell, I have a cool new use for the hash preimage script... ;-) | 18:03 |
| bsm117532- | Ok, off to read transcripts, thanks @kanzure, @gmaxwell | 18:04 |
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| gmaxwell | bsm117532-: can't quite figure out the falcon-net page? is that a commercial service? | 23:26 |
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| gmaxwell | (more tools in that space are good, in any case) | 23:27 |
| gmaxwell | but the claims about relay network being unmaintained and what not are untrue. (though matt has tried pretty hard to get people to setup alternatives, including by threatening to stop maintaining it :)) | 23:28 |
| sipa | having another relay network, curated by a different group, is not bad | 23:31 |
| gmaxwell | not not bad, it's fantastic. | 23:31 |
| gmaxwell | The rest I dunno about, and don't care. :) | 23:31 |
| sipa | so, what is the problem? were they expecting their not-yet-announced application-level-cut-through-routing to be integrated into bitcoin directly? | 23:33 |
| gmaxwell | I emailed Gun, and had a back and forth discussion. His position is perplexing to me. It appears to me that he is basically referring to the whole bitcoin industry (not just Bitcoin Core) as blockstream. I wrote him a long list of people who have no asscoiation with blockstream and came up with items in the core capacity roadmap, and he went through it and said that Christian Decker was the on | 23:41 |
| gmaxwell | ly person who wasn't a blockstream contractor. | 23:41 |
| gmaxwell | He then gave me a list of things we supposidly ignored, which was mostly things first published in feburary, months after that capacity roadmap, most not related to capacity/scaling. | 23:42 |
| gmaxwell | He also complained that bitcoin-ng was not part of that roadmap. In my response I pointed out that the preprint was first published a few weeks before that roadmap, and that it's a pretty radical change to the system. | 23:43 |
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| gmaxwell | (I continue to think we can get the same benefits without giving miners (ephemeral) identities as bitcoin-ng does) | 23:43 |
| gmaxwell | so I don't get it, I think he may have unrealistic expectations at the pace that academic research can enter production. | 23:44 |
| rusty2 | gmaxwell: he may also underestimate the other low-hanging fruit before we consider such a radical change. | 23:47 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> gmaxwell: In my experience, people who complain about "problems being ignored" usually either are confused or have an agenda. To the point that I usually don't engage such people anymore. Props to you for engaging him. | 23:47 |
| gmaxwell | I have a lot of respect for him and think basically everything he works on is interesting. It's really demoralizing to get that kind of comment, I think it's predicated on misunderstandings and I don't want to write it off. | 23:48 |
| gmaxwell | There is also the issue that his attitude will potentially be impressed on his students. | 23:48 |
| gmaxwell | rusty2: and perhaps overestimates how many people who are working on these things in earnest on the bitcoin side. | 23:48 |
| rusty2 | gmaxwell: very good point. | 23:49 |
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| sipa | qpm: what is that <tx> ? | 23:58 |
| gmaxwell | and just the general cadance, e.g. he complained that no action has been taking relative to http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/MES16.pdf ... but a big part of the SW motivation is to make further script extensions deployable without as much work as CLTV/CSV took. | 23:58 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> sipa: Tx is a private Tor-only IRC network; qpm is a relay between Tx and Freenode. | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Wed Jun 15 00:00:06 2016 | ||
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