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| instagibbs | LOL | 05:17 |
|---|---|---|
| instagibbs | why is the bridge 2 way? It's not supposed to be? btcdrak ? | 05:17 |
| slackircbridge1 | <instagibbs> test | 05:18 |
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| instagibbs | guess it's not now nvm | 05:19 |
| btcdrak | someone needs to +q the slackircbridge1 user | 05:20 |
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| helo | be care with those smart contracts, folks ;) | 08:05 |
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| jaromil | or maybe not, just have fun with it? I guess ethereum now can be considered a testnet | 08:13 |
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| JackH | how did it ever get to 160 million dollars? | 08:19 |
| JackH | that alone is INSANE, for non audited code just dumped in a chain that has very little auditing itself to begin with | 08:20 |
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| kanzure | wrong channel, JackH | 08:22 |
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| JackH | yeah I know.... | 08:24 |
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| kanzure | http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/ | 08:49 |
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| Taek | kanzure: can you put all the links about the DAO vulnerability into a single folder? | 08:57 |
| JackH | actually this is a bit relevant for Bitcoin, if anything, we can see the social side at play if they do a HF | 08:57 |
| Taek | or at least give them a single tag. This stuff has a ton of educational value | 08:58 |
| JackH | and if I am not wrong, SegWit + MAST will allow some smart contract possibilities | 08:58 |
| kanzure | Taek: i wasn't going to bother tracking these. | 08:58 |
| Taek | it's both a good example of playing with fire and how not to design a script system | 08:59 |
| kanzure | Taek: i sort of assumed someone else would be keeping a timeline of links but now that i say it outloud i realize that's completely unlikely. | 08:59 |
| JackH | you know we all look to you for links and files and pdf's kanzure | 09:00 |
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| kanzure | JackH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekP0LQEsUh0 | 09:00 |
| JackH | LOL | 09:01 |
| JackH | if you dont agree, make a DAO replacement ;) | 09:02 |
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| jaromil | very little auditing? nono, its "televised auditing" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/r-issues-buterin-s-ethereum-platform-review-papers-opportunities-and-challenges-for-private-and-consortium-blockchains-1465943849 | 09:09 |
| jaromil | this is from 3 days ago, but has been going on for 1-2 years now | 09:10 |
| jaromil | https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/ing-bank-participates-in-r-s-comparative-test-of-distributed-ledgers-and-cloud-platforms-1457543723 | 09:10 |
| katu_ | "bank" and "cloud" sound scary in same sentence | 09:11 |
| jaromil | and there is a list of world class banks on the bandwagon, here it is, scroll down and read where the endorsements come from http://r3cev.com/press/2016/1/20/r3-brings-eleven-major-global-financial-institutions-together-on-a-cloud-based-distributed-ledger | 09:11 |
| katu_ | especially with weak paxos "blockchains" like HL | 09:11 |
| jaromil | anyway its at least good that ethereum shielded Bitcoin short - mid and long term development from the hyped up banksters on ecstasy | 09:13 |
| katu_ | ? | 09:13 |
| katu_ | please keep it to tech in here :) | 09:13 |
| jaromil | yep sry | 09:13 |
| jaromil | let it be a warning against hype on tech, when it comes to audit better leave the shills out of the door | 09:14 |
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| Taek | https://blog.slock.it/deja-vu-dao-smart-contracts-audit-results-d26bc088e32e#.cd6f0x2cy | 09:22 |
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| Taek | This makes me question the value of security audits generally with regards to cryptocurrency | 09:23 |
| Taek | I suppose it's a bit like getting a security audit of your custom hashing function | 09:23 |
| othe | damn hard to audit something like this without auditing the whole ethereum trainwreck | 09:24 |
| fluffypony | except they DID audit Ethereum, othe | 09:24 |
| fluffypony | same company | 09:24 |
| othe | which ethereum? | 09:24 |
| othe | the go one, the python one, the rust one, or the c++ one? | 09:24 |
| fluffypony | http://www.dejavusecurity.com/blog/2015/7/23/deja-vu-security-assists-in-ethereum-release | 09:24 |
| fluffypony | http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53168f6ce4b0ee73efea0c2a/t/55b69280e4b0c62a632f5508/1438028416636/CaseStudyEthereum1_BlogDecorations.pdf | 09:24 |
| fluffypony | looks like the Go one ony | 09:25 |
| fluffypony | *only | 09:25 |
| othe | not surprised, also not surprised they didn´t find everything | 09:25 |
| fluffypony | to speak to your point, Taek, security audits in cryptocurrency are mostly a marketing exercise | 09:26 |
| othe | would have to be ongoing anyway, or its kinda pointless | 09:27 |
| katu_ | unless the implementation is formally verifiable to a spec which itself can be proven | 09:28 |
| katu_ | to be fair, bitcoin has neither too | 09:28 |
| katu_ | i wonder if theres some academic research to that goal though, kanzure ? :) | 09:28 |
| JackH | lol | 09:32 |
| Taek | There are parts of Bitcoin which have been formally verified, at least to simplified assumptions | 09:33 |
| Taek | for example, I'm pretty sure that sipa did some formal verification to prove that certain types of errors did not exist in libsecp256k1 | 09:33 |
| Taek | which is not fully equivalent to proving there are no bugs at all in libsecp256k1, but it shows that the tools exist, are being used, and in the future their use will probably become easier and more ubiquitious | 09:34 |
| katu_ | Taek: thats only algorithms in secp256k1, C implementation is pretty much impossible to model check | 09:34 |
| gmaxwell | katu_: thats not true, on either point. | 09:35 |
| gmaxwell | We formally verified some aspects of the C code used in the field arithemetic using frama C, and using formalizations of C (frama c, or the compcert COQ embedding) it's possible to check much more, though we haven't because it's a lot of difficult specialized work that none of the people working on it are experts in. | 09:36 |
| bsm117532 | This is one thing that annoys me about Ethereum. For smart contracts you *really* want formal verification. They instead went with an opaque bytecode and multiple front-end languages... :-/ | 09:37 |
| bsm117532 | I'd have gone with Prolog or ML... | 09:37 |
| katu_ | gmaxwell: neat, so limited subset of C on reduced domains. thats pretty impressive. still, incomplete model :/ | 09:38 |
| katu_ | bsm117532: agreed :( | 09:39 |
| gmaxwell | katu_: the limited subset is the whole of the language we use. | 09:39 |
| gmaxwell | (the formalizations don't support a few things, but those are things we don't use; (well when we started, compcert didn't do long long, but I'm pretty sure it does now)) | 09:40 |
| katu_ | gmaxwell: im more surprised about the asm part correctness | 09:40 |
| katu_ | that theres tooling for that these days | 09:40 |
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| jaromil | the problem is not cryptographical, but semantical / linguistic | 10:12 |
| jaromil | there are limits to perfection which set me off from thinking there should really be a crypto-currency written in Coq | 10:13 |
| jaromil | but at least some more literacy in implementing an actual language grammar should be there | 10:13 |
| jaromil | and at the very least, contracts should be written in a language that is as functional, non-imperative and stateless as possible | 10:14 |
| jaromil | IMHO | 10:14 |
| jaromil | (anyway really to check Coq, interesting concept https://coq.inria.fr | 10:15 |
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| nicolag | What prevents a miner to not accept a transaction of mine? | 10:53 |
| gmaxwell | Nothing. | 10:54 |
| gmaxwell | Hopefully you paid enough fee to make it attractive, and that that was enough. | 10:54 |
| gmaxwell | and hopefully you preserved your privacy well enough that they can't tell your transaction apart from any other. | 10:55 |
| nicolag | thanks gmaxwell | 10:56 |
| fluffypony | nicolag: nothing prevents them, that's why there's more than 1 miner | 10:56 |
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| bramc | Hey everybody | 20:29 |
| bramc | The discussion in list is productive, but unfortunately it's cut into my coding time :-/ | 20:29 |
| bramc | It's been worth it just to find out that blake2 is 5 times as fast as sha256 though. Anybody know what the block and padding sizes for blake2 are? | 20:30 |
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| nicolag | has it been proven that byzantine fault tolerant protocols must have 3 phases? (/cc amiller) | 21:21 |
| amiller | it might depend on the setting, especially synchronous, asyncronous, or osmeting else, and what tolerance | 21:22 |
| amiller | and whether you mean in the worst case or in an optimistic case | 21:23 |
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| amiller | nicolag, | 21:24 |
| amiller | i'm curious if you had something specific in mind! | 21:24 |
| amiller | also: hi nicola! | 21:24 |
| nicolag | hello amiller, I am on my way reading your honey badger paper | 21:25 |
| nicolag | and I took a step back re-reading the pbft | 21:25 |
| nicolag | and I have been watching Barbara Liskov presenting in 2001 | 21:26 |
| nicolag | (http://video.mit.edu/watch/practical-byzantine-fault-tolerance-9388/) | 21:26 |
| nicolag | and at some point she says that 3f+1 has been proven, while she could not come up if 3 phases is the minimal | 21:27 |
| nicolag | amount of phases (with a valid proof) | 21:27 |
| amiller | there are faster ones | 21:29 |
| amiller | note that this is in the optimistic case | 21:29 |
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| amiller | like, pbft for sure takes more phases if you have some failures and so you have to do the view change steps | 21:29 |
| amiller | here's a 1-rounder https://www.cs.cornell.edu/projects/QuickSilver/public_pdfs/52180438.pdf | 21:29 |
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| nicolag | I will have a look at it | 21:34 |
| nicolag | if you have other background reading, please send | 21:34 |
| zooko | bramc: the RFC is probably the best resource for you to learn BLAKE2: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7693 | 21:35 |
| zooko | BLAKE2b has 128-byte blocks, BLAKE2s has 64-byte blocks | 21:35 |
| zooko | padding is "minimal", i.e. optimized out when possible | 21:36 |
| zooko | What mailing list discussion? | 21:36 |
| nicolag | also amiller I have a set of questions that I will ask once I am done | 21:36 |
| nicolag | (i might answer them and ask you if my thinking is correct) | 21:37 |
| bramc | zooko: on bitcoin-dev | 21:38 |
| amiller | nicolag, sure | 21:40 |
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| zooko | bramc: are the things you want to hash small things like the outputs from lower-level hashes in a tree, or large things like kilobytes worth of data? Or both? | 21:43 |
| zooko | You can look up the sort of machine you want to optimize for and the size of data on http://bench.cr.yp.to/results-hash.html | 21:44 |
| zooko | Unfortunately it isn't being maintained and there are some optimized implementations of BLAKE2 that aren't shown there. | 21:44 |
| bramc | Mostly things which are exactly 65 bytes :-P | 21:44 |
| zooko | Ooh. :-/ | 21:44 |
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| bramc | I can cut corners and make it 64 easily enough, but that requires no padding to work well. | 21:45 |
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| zooko | Why does it require no padding? | 21:46 |
| bramc | It doesn't require no padding, but the 2x speedup would be nice. | 21:47 |
| zooko | If you don't mind optimizing for AVX2, there's a new implementation by Dcoder that is just beautiful on AVX2. | 21:48 |
| zooko | It's 1.5 cycles per byte! | 21:48 |
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| bramc | What is avx2? | 21:48 |
| zooko | But you have to have sufficiently long inputs that the SIMD can do its magic. | 21:48 |
| zooko | AVX2 is a new wide SIMD instruction in x86-64 chips. | 21:48 |
| bramc | Oh, nope, no sufficiently long inputs here, and this must run well on a wide range of hardware | 21:49 |
| zooko | As for the last issue, I personally try to target ARM chips nowadays, figuring that *everything* is fast on new Intel chips. | 21:51 |
| bramc | The most interesting benchmark is the least favorable hardware. | 21:51 |
| zooko | Exactly. minimax | 21:51 |
| zooko | As for the first issue, I was thinking you might be able to construct wide inputs if you wanted by having higher fanout or something. | 21:51 |
| zooko | http://bench.cr.yp.to/results-hash.html has results on lots of different hardware. | 21:51 |
| bramc | I don't really need to look at benchmarks to know I should switch to blake2. It beats sha256 in a blowout. | 21:52 |
| zooko | Right. | 21:53 |
| bramc | What is the significance of blake2b and blake2s? | 21:53 |
| zooko | b is the 64-bit-optimized version, with 128-byte blocks, and s is the 32-bit-optimized version, with 64-byte blocks. | 21:54 |
| bramc | My API should probably stick with sha256 for the things passed in, because it accepts them either hashed or unhashed and the external hashing function is much more likely to be sha256 | 21:54 |
| bramc | Ah. My understanding is that 32-bit machines are dying out. | 21:54 |
| zooko | Yeah, I was surprised to see 64-bit quickly spread in cell phones | 21:55 |
| zooko | 32-bit is probably continuing to be super-important in embedded (IoT) and so on. | 21:55 |
| zooko | But if your inputs can fit into 64-bytes then BLAKE2s might be a little more efficient even on 64-bit CPUs. | 21:56 |
| zooko | Or maybe not. Probably ought to try both and measure. | 21:56 |
| bramc | I doubt there are going to be many 32-bit machines running this so I'm going to optimize for the common case and do blake2. | 21:58 |
| bramc | Also I don't expect to see many 128-bit machines ever. | 21:58 |
| * zooko nods | 22:00 | |
| zooko | BLAKE2b is a fine choice. | 22:00 |
| gmaxwell | the other fun though is that sha2 looks like it will be considerably faster once silicon support for it ships. | 22:02 |
| gmaxwell | So you end up with the aes vs chacha support, where aes is much faster/more power efficient with hardware support, and much worse without. | 22:03 |
| kanzure | bramc: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/merkle-mountain-range.md | 22:03 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/mmr.py | 22:03 |
| kanzure | and for others following along: | 22:03 |
| kanzure | https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-May/012715.html | 22:03 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: good point! | 22:03 |
| kanzure | https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-June/012758.html | 22:04 |
| bramc | gmaxwell: grumble grumble. blake2b is probably down in 'cache misses are just as much of a problem' territory, so the boost from hardware acceleration might not matter all that much. | 22:05 |
| bramc | I like how we went through all that time and effort to select sha3 and now we're debating sha256 vs. blake. | 22:07 |
| zooko | ;-) | 22:07 |
| zooko | SHA3 could also be super-fast someday, if added into hardware. | 22:07 |
| bramc | Everything is fast if you accelerate it in hardware. | 22:08 |
| zooko | The SHA3 contest was a great success. It produced not only SHA3, but also produced the realization that making secure hash functions is relatively easy nowadays, and in fact SHA256 apparently already was one. | 22:08 |
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| Taek | blake2 also doesn't suffer from length extension attacks | 22:25 |
| zooko | True. | 22:26 |
| zooko | My observation in choosing between SHA256 and BLAKE2 in Zcash is that dumb engineering bits that like make a big difference. | 22:27 |
| zooko | Keying, length-extension, personalization. | 22:27 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: fwiw, sha2 is siginificant in profiles of bitcoin core, enough that there is work underway to use sse4 sha256, and use parallel sha256 in the tree hashing. | 22:27 |
| gmaxwell | it wasn't until we made everything else fast, however. | 22:28 |
| bramc | gmaxwell: Adding utxo commitments would quite a bit of hashing overhead | 22:28 |
| bramc | would add I mean | 22:29 |
| gmaxwell | (in particular the impact on block connection is non-trivial... as signatures are cached and such) | 22:30 |
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