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| zooko | gmaxwell: it's a performance issue. We can't implement SNARK prover in EVM because prohibitively expensive. | 01:03 |
|---|---|---|
| zooko | Oh wait, I mean verifier. | 01:04 |
| zooko | And actually, now that I say that, I'm not entirely sure that it is true! | 01:04 |
| gmaxwell | it would be insanely so. | 01:07 |
| gmaxwell | by comment earlier was mostly a joke about the dao theft, a million ether would pay for a lot of contract execution though. | 01:07 |
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| bitjedi | 12:22 AM <zooko> please tell me more about who wants to fund it. <-- assuming TheDAO hacker wants the option of eth privacy layers like zksnarks, ringct, etc.... asap. has eth, will fund. lol. | 03:20 |
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| nsh | hi zooko :) please don't call your awesome cryptothings sprouts kthx | 03:40 |
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| kanzure | http://ryandoyle.net/assets/papers/Distributed_Bootstrapping_of_P2P_Networks-RDoyle.pdf | 08:17 |
| kanzure | http://doc.tm.uka.de/2009/ipv6-contest-p2p-bootstrap.pdf | 08:17 |
| kanzure | https://www.ipv6council.de/fileadmin/summit09/presentations/IDEA-pv6contest-p2p-bootstrapping.pdf | 08:17 |
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| nicolag | in order for stellar not to have two divergent statements being ratified by two different quorum slices, stellar needs to have these quorum slices to be interconnected, how do they guarantee that? | 08:44 |
| nicolag | s/quorum slices/quorums/ | 08:44 |
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| kanzure | nicolag: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9342947 | 08:49 |
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| katu_ | kanzure: (re: random probing) this is actually how conficker p2p used to bootstrap | 09:16 |
| katu_ | (it indeed is rather resilient, as long the network is sufficiently large) | 09:16 |
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| kanzure | "Dafny: a language and program verifier for functional correctness" http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/dafny/ | 09:31 |
| kanzure | "KIV is a tool for formal systems development and interactive verification" http://www.isse.uni-augsburg.de/en/software/kiv/ | 09:31 |
| kanzure | http://why3.lri.fr/ "Why3 is a platform for deductive program verification. It provides a rich language for specification and programming, called WhyML, and relies on external theorem provers, both automated and interactive, to discharge verification conditions." | 09:32 |
| kanzure | "The continuation of functional programming by other means" (xavier leroy video) http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/Milner2012/X_Leroy-html5-mp4.html | 09:33 |
| kanzure | "The future of functional programming languages" (panel discussion video) http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/Milner2012/Monday_Panel-html5-mp4.html | 09:33 |
| kanzure | whatever happened to that coq/bitcoin thing, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=949942.0 | 09:36 |
| kanzure | hm git repo has been removed https://github.com/billlwhite/ledgertheory | 09:36 |
| bsm1175321 | https://github.com/bitemyapp/ledgertheory | 09:37 |
| kanzure | alright. | 09:38 |
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| bsm1175321 | It's basically a UTXO set commitment as-a-ledger, AFAICT... | 09:41 |
| bsm1175321 | He's also tracking branches of the UTXO commitment Merkle tree which are empty. So his Merkle tree will have roughly twice as many leaves as there are outputs. | 09:42 |
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| bsm1175321 | But, proofs of absence in the UTXO set follow in a straightforward manner.... | 09:43 |
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| kanzure | seems that "dag stuff must pick things that increases the size of the set of ancestors" is an obvious result that others are intuiting, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1504649.20 | 10:08 |
| bsm1175321 | I've been assuming it all along. You want to create the highest work chain or you risk orphaning your own blocks. | 10:10 |
| bsm1175321 | Eyeballs bleeding...word salad. (closes bitcointalk tab) Back to braids... | 10:13 |
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| zooko | kanzure: apropos the format verification stuff you were posting: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/1039 | 13:05 |
| zooko | *formal | 13:05 |
| kanzure | this? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/Papers/financial-contracts/contracts-icfp.htm | 13:06 |
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| kanzure | "On the impossibility of a merkle merge homomorphism" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/617.pdf | 13:35 |
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| nicolag | kanzure: I am on mobile, what is the above ^ ? | 13:49 |
| kanzure | you asked a question about quorum slices, the link contains an answer | 13:55 |
| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9342947 | 13:55 |
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| nicolag | oh thanks kanzure, will look into it | 14:01 |
| Taek | having multiple implementations means that softforks become more annoying to deal with, and hardforks become more dangerous | 14:03 |
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| Taek | I guess if you are doing a 2-of-3 and running 3 full nodes with different implementations it may make hardforks safer | 14:04 |
| gmaxwell | Taek: that doesn't make it safer; it just makes more than three times more resource intensive to run a node which will actually be consistent with the network. | 14:05 |
| gmaxwell | Both false acceptance and false rejection are bad and can be turned into monetary losses. | 14:05 |
| Taek | And I guess it's even more of an issue if there are like 5 or 6 implementations total and different people are chosing different ones for their set of 3 | 14:06 |
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| bramc | Trying to make standards more reliable by having multiple implementations has a very poor track record | 14:32 |
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| dgenr8 | consistency is very important, but is not the only desirable property. Taek surely means that having 6 implementations makes you resistant to bugs in any one of them. | 16:47 |
| gmaxwell | It can make you vulnerable to bugs in all of them. | 16:48 |
| gmaxwell | And divide the review and development resources thin enough to result in not one of them being correct. | 16:48 |
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| Taek | Consistency is significantly more important in a system like Bitcoin than in something like http | 16:54 |
| Taek | I understand the idea that differneces between implementations can help you find ways that each vary from the high-level spec, but differences are only detected if consistency breaks, which means consensus is threatened | 16:56 |
| Taek | and, the fact that you've divided resources may detract more than having two implementations helps | 16:56 |
| gmaxwell | There are other alternatives, for example-- one we used for the opus audio codec. We wrote a whole seperate compatible implementation (of just the decoder); tested heavily against it, then threw it out. | 16:57 |
| gmaxwell | (it wasn't thrown out ~entirely~ some new optimizations were discovered while it was being written and those went upstream eventually; but pretty much.) | 16:58 |
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