| --- Log opened Mon Jun 20 00:00:35 2016 | ||
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| JackH | has op_csv locked in? | 02:11 |
|---|---|---|
| btcdrak | JackH: not yet. Check back in 30 hours | 02:26 |
| btcdrak | oh less 121 blocks to go | 02:28 |
| JackH | this is about right: http://api.qbit.ninja/versionstats ? | 02:28 |
| JackH | "proposal": "CSV", | 02:29 |
| JackH | "count": 1909, | 02:29 |
| JackH | "percentage": 94.692460317460316 | 02:29 |
| btcdrak | JackH: we need 1916 blocks, we currently have 1829 | 02:29 |
| JackH | ahh | 02:29 |
| JackH | gotcha | 02:29 |
| btcdrak | after another 87 signalling blocks, then we are technically at point of no return for lockin, although the state change wont happen until the retarget | 02:30 |
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| btcdrak | assuming that happens, activation will occur on block 419328 | 02:31 |
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| btcdrak | JackH: seems the qbit thing isnt correct for the "last2016" entry. it's doing a rolling count, which is not relevant for BIP9. | 02:39 |
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| JackH | where are you checking btcdrak ? | 02:41 |
| btcdrak | direct from my bitcoind | 02:41 |
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| kanzure | idris/smart contract things http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/234939/234939.pdf | 09:15 |
| buZz | cause you didnt loose enough money yet | 09:20 |
| buZz | kanzure: enjoy :) | 09:20 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 09:20 |
| buZz | oh sorry, i'll retract my offer of enjoyment | 09:21 |
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| maaku | kanzure: thanks, great link | 09:24 |
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| JackH | ;;getblock | 10:37 |
| gribble | Error: "getblock" is not a valid command. | 10:37 |
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| kanzure | 10:49 <+kanzure> describe your coq chips | 10:50 |
| kanzure | 10:49 <+sbp> proof engine is burned into a chip. no code executes ever which does not come with proofs of how it runs | 10:50 |
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| kanzure | https://www.andres-loeh.de/LambdaPi/LambdaPi.pdf | 10:56 |
| kanzure | http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/dimitris/pie.pdf | 10:57 |
| bsm117532 | I'm going to follow Kanzure and just paste links I'm reading... ;-) | 11:00 |
| bsm117532 | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0893965910001308 | 11:00 |
| bsm117532 | e.g. for sharing a hash preimage as a secret, used in a hash-locked txn P2SH... | 11:00 |
| kanzure | "An efficient multi-use multi-secret sharing scheme based on hash function" | 11:02 |
| kanzure | "Vertebrate brains and evolutionary connectomics: on the origins of the mammalian 'neocortex'" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Harvey_Karten/publication/283648861_Vertebrate_brains_and_evolutionary_connectomics_On_the_origins_of_the_mammalian_'neocortex'/links/566fb1ac08aec0bb67bf17ad.pdf | 11:03 |
| kanzure | wait, no, wrong channel | 11:03 |
| kanzure | "Dependent types without the sugar" http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~psztxa/publ/pisigma-new.pdf | 11:03 |
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| nsh | otoh, your face complicates a metatheoretic study and is a potential source of bugs | 11:22 |
| nsh | +al | 11:22 |
| nsh | (i approve of the approach here though. use a series of metalanguage to keep the formal definition of any one within formal tractability) | 11:23 |
| nsh | the second formal meaning proving things about | 11:23 |
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| EtherPro | Slockit released the Ethereum Computer.. with the ETHOS seems cool check this out: http://ether-computer.com/ | 18:24 |
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| nsh | lol | 18:32 |
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| smooth | i wish i were brave enough to click that link and see what lulz await | 18:44 |
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| bsm1175321 | smooth: curl is your friend | 18:52 |
| gmaxwell | curl has had remotely explotable vulnerablities in the past. | 18:53 |
| bsm1175321 | wget then? <!-- Mirrored from slock.it/ethereum_computer.html by HTTrack Website Copier/3.x [XR&CO'2014], Mon, 20 Jun 2016 03:09:56 GMT --> | 18:55 |
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| smooth | 1 | 20:41 |
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| bramc | I just had the rather embarrassing realization that I've been assuming that memory lookups act like disk lookups but faster, with the normal behavior being that whenever you pull a memory location into cache its whole neighborhood gets pulled with it. Reading over how memory caches work on wikipedia now, I'm not sure if that's true. | 21:46 |
| bramc | Or rather, I'm not sure how close to true it is. | 21:46 |
| bramc | The thing I've been working on makes perfect sense as an on-disk data structure | 21:47 |
| bsm1175321 | it's paged, yes. | 21:47 |
| bramc | How big are the pages? | 21:48 |
| bsm1175321 | But so are disks. | 21:48 |
| bsm1175321 | 4kb usually | 21:48 |
| bsm1175321 | http://igoro.com/archive/gallery-of-processor-cache-effects/ | 21:48 |
| bsm1175321 | 4kb for disk, 64 bytes for L1, according to this. | 21:49 |
| katu_ | bramc: usually, the kernel speculatively reads ahead | 21:50 |
| katu_ | between 128k and several megabytes, depending on io pressure and free buffer cache | 21:50 |
| bramc | For disks the local affinity is even stronger because the whole read or write can be done at once, even if it spans multiple pages | 21:51 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc: Yes adjacent reads on spinning rust are faster. That shouldn't be true on RAM or flash though. | 21:51 |
| bsm1175321 | According to /proc/cpuinfo, ache_alignment is 64 which I think is the relevant value for me. | 21:51 |
| katu_ | well, cachelines work slightly differently | 21:52 |
| katu_ | depends if the dram channel is free or not | 21:52 |
| katu_ | if it is, they're fetched in parallel, otherwise cacheline waits | 21:52 |
| katu_ | ie a lot like raid stripes | 21:52 |
| bramc | My whole thing is based on there being a 'block', which is an allocated chunk of memory which generally has the property that if you some of it into cache then usually most of it gets pulled into cache | 21:53 |
| katu_ | with ram, that can be assumed only on cacheline granularity | 21:54 |
| bramc | And cachelines are extremely small | 21:54 |
| katu_ | not necessarily | 21:54 |
| bsm1175321 | Meanwhile /me just wrote several paragraphs about how to make block-validation time irrelevant... | 21:54 |
| katu_ | for example gpus do large fetches, up to 64kb | 21:54 |
| katu_ | because high the massive bandwidth they have can afford it | 21:55 |
| katu_ | and this avoids contention for channel between threads | 21:55 |
| bramc | What about CPUs? wikipedia says their cache lines are about 128 bytes | 21:55 |
| katu_ | bramc: can be anything between 16 and 256 bytes | 21:55 |
| bramc | katu_: I'd call that extremely small | 21:55 |
| katu_ | 64 or 128 is usually assumed as average for desktop cpus. | 21:56 |
| bsm1175321 | Nvidia Fermi and Kepler have 128-byte cache lines. | 21:56 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm guessing this is the bus width... | 21:57 |
| bramc | Although maybe for in-memory stuff the cache misses don't matter so much and my stuff should be assumed to be optimized for on-disk performance and high memory efficiency. | 21:57 |
| katu_ | bsm1175321: nah, there actually is cacheline this small at lowest level | 21:57 |
| katu_ | but it majority of latency is the thread/global cache contention (a bit like l2, except l2 on cpus does not have radically higher granularity), not l1 | 21:58 |
| katu_ | bramc: depends entirely how much you stream. if its random probing accesses like scrypt, depends on cache a lot | 21:59 |
| katu_ | if its some proof of space scheme spanning several gigabytes, cachelines wont matter that much, imo (assuming you read in sequence most of the time) | 22:00 |
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| bramc | My favored proof of space scheme involves very simple localized reads, but that's not what I'm working on at the moment. At the moment I'm working on a merkle tree. | 22:00 |
| katu_ | depends on how you organize it | 22:01 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc: There's an optimization here that maybe you're not considering... We can group the contents of the mempool into the same page (or nearby pages) so that when a block comes, there's a very high chance the majority of it will be in the mempool-optimized bucket of the hash, and have few cache misses. | 22:01 |
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| katu_ | some sort of binary heap, skiplist, btree | 22:01 |
| katu_ | skiplist would be probably worst | 22:01 |
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| bramc | katu_: I'm working on a merkle tree. These things suck. | 22:02 |
| katu_ | no idea what nature of lookups you do there so its hard to say | 22:02 |
| katu_ | but i'd not rely on random access having high latencies much | 22:03 |
| bsm1175321 | katu_: It's basically the worst possible data structure for caching. | 22:03 |
| katu_ | that can be easily defeated by high bandwidth+high latency+high parallelism | 22:03 |
| katu_ | ie just like it happened for scrypt | 22:03 |
| bramc | katu_: This is for utxo commitments, not proofs of work | 22:03 |
| katu_ | oh | 22:03 |
| bramc | So in this case latencies are all bad. | 22:03 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc I think you can get a whole long way by organizing the UTXO set using a probabilistic model: In mempool is highest priority. Known re-use addresses as second priority. Satoshi's coins as lowest priority. | 22:04 |
| bsm1175321 | Use that to assign buckets in your hash table. | 22:04 |
| bramc | bsm1175321: I'm assuming everything isn't in the mempool, trying to make the worst case not a problem. | 22:05 |
| bsm1175321 | bramc: Ok, dig your own grave. ;-) | 22:05 |
| bsm1175321 | Meanwhile I'm working on the time required to verify a commitment not matter. ;-) | 22:06 |
| bsm1175321 | Also, grammar. | 22:06 |
| katu_ | i dont see this that bad, assuming you have reasonable index of whatever you look up often | 22:06 |
| bramc | Somebody else can worry about mempool optimizations. They should already be in there. | 22:06 |
| bramc | I want to assume a totally random set of stuff in the utxo set gets spent every block | 22:06 |
| bsm1175321 | Why assume totally random? You've just created the problem... | 22:07 |
| bramc | Because if it works in the worst case, it works in every case | 22:08 |
| bsm1175321 | FWIW, I had hoped that by allowing blocks to have multiple parents and moving to a DAG instead of a linked list, I could allow a "block" to be a transaction. (the extreme of random access) However I've found that without extreme gymnastics, the tx rate cannot be more than about 100x faster than Bitcoin (e.g. ~ 6s block time) in order to achieve consensus. | 22:09 |
| bsm1175321 | In other words, at today's transaction rates of ~1000 tx/block, you're already in the regime where doing away with a mempool and the p2p layer is impossible, for consensus reasons. | 22:10 |
| bsm1175321 | As you and I have discussed before, this is fundamentally related to the size of the Earth, and a ~few second round trip time. So optimizing for the mempool, or whatever p2p tells you, is a shortcut that's relevant now and will become more relevant in the future. | 22:12 |
| bramc | Right now I'm very narrowly focused on Bitcoin as it exists today | 22:20 |
| bsm1175321 | Can't make caches faster with software. We need to fix Satoshi's design flaw. The network is not synchronous. | 22:22 |
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| bsm1175321 | You're optimizing for an operation that needs to be zero time, because the assumption is that the network is synchronous, and it only becomes synchronous in the limit that (validation time) -> 0. It's the assumption that's flawed, and Satoshi's original design. There are other ways to fix it. | 22:23 |
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