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| jl2012 | some discussion related to MAST and new opcodes: | 11:36 |
|---|---|---|
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:11:01] <jl2012> I don't really understand why Satoshi disabled SUBSTR, LEFT, RIGHT. I can't find any discussion | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:11:43] <petertodd> jl2012: probably only because they looked complex | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:13:34] <jl2012> LSHIFT would crash some nodes. So he disabled all the bitwise logic codes | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:15:56] <jl2012> https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/mastopcodes/bip-mastopcodes.mediawiki#Examples | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:16:49] <jl2012> I gave 2 examples here. To realize these use cases, CAT and SUBSTR are the minimum requirement | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:20:45] <petertodd> why do the expand? opcodes remove _all_ stack items? | 11:37 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:22:31] <jl2012> same as segwit, my MAST bip (BIP114) requires the stack to have exactly 1 true value left after evaluation | 11:37 |
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| jl2012 | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RTgj0ZMu/ | 11:40 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:22:55] <petertodd> after evaluation of any opcode? | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:24:17] <jl2012> after evaluation of the script. But EXPANDs will terminate the evaluation immediately | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:24:33] <jl2012> a bit similar to Satoshi's original OP_RETURN | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:24:51] <petertodd> ah, right | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:25:08] <petertodd> hmm... seems like a potential footgun | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:26:22] <jl2012> yes, that could be risky. I made this proposal before we expand the definition of witness program from 32 to 40 bytes | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:26:36] <jl2012> This may not be necessary now | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:26:59] <petertodd> yeah, I'd be very strongly inclined to leave that off - there's certainty in the fact that evaluation continues to the end | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:27:12] <petertodd> not entirely unrelated to evaluation being stateless | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:27:29] <jl2012> and I want to propose killing OP_IF and its friends in MAST | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:27:55] <petertodd> why? | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:28:24] <jl2012> because MAST could handle everything that OP_IF could do | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:28:34] <petertodd> how? | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:29:21] <jl2012> just put different conditions as different MAST branches | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:29:45] <jl2012> example: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0114.mediawiki#Hashed_TimeLock_Contract | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:29:46] <petertodd> ah right, because mast *is* an op_if - fair enough | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:30:09] <petertodd> hmm, that's kinda a confusing way of writing this stuff... | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:30:20] <jl2012> that will make sure all op_codes in a script to be executed | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:30:26] <jl2012> easier to audit | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:30:40] <jl2012> simply the implmentation | 11:41 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:30:50] <petertodd> ...all executed in a sucesful evaluation of course | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:31:10] <petertodd> yeah, I don't think the way you've written that htlc contract is easy to read at all - but that's just a presentation-layer thing | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:32:14] <jl2012> i think it's easier than the expression in BIP112, at least.... | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:33:05] <petertodd> again, not having if's is very confusing | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:33:28] <btcdrak> confusing it not good for adoption | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:33:49] <petertodd> like I say, this doesn't need to be a lower-level fix, just a fix in terms of how we pretty-print this stuff | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:34:44] <jl2012> I think using IF is very confusing.....to understand that BIP112 example, I have to execute the script with pen and paper | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:34:59] <petertodd> same kind of reason why I show dex expressions in lisp form, even though you could show them in depth-first form, and many implementations might work better that way | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:36:05] <petertodd> have you considered brackets? I mean, the confusion in the BIP112 example for you probably stems from the fact this is a stack-based language - with or without lisp-like brackets can actually be done the same way under the hood | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:44:50] <jl2012> for example, it's not obvious why a 2DROP is used, until one really runs the script step by step | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:49:36] <petertodd> ? I mean, if you know what CSV does it seems pretty obvious to me | 11:42 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:50:52] <jl2012> but usually you use a DROP after CSV, not 2DROP. So you need to figure out what the other item is dropped | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:51:43] <petertodd> well, because of what was on the stack in the if of course | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:51:58] <jl2012> maybe I'm not smart enough to run this script mentally.... | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:52:34] <petertodd> I mean, it's just a factor of how optimized the script is; it could be written otherwise, which your mast version makes impossible | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:53:28] <jl2012> "which your mast version makes impossible" <--- don't understand | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:54:36] <petertodd> I mean, if I understand it right, I can't reuse the stuff on the stack in the same way that the bip112 version does | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:56:01] <jl2012> it's a MAST, that means you will/can only use one of the conditions a time. So why would you like to reuse something? | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 01:59:21] <petertodd> because I might have two conditions that use the same data | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:00:07] <jl2012> yes, but the unexecuted condition is hidden in the merkle tree, anyway | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:00:46] <petertodd> eh, let me take a closer look at this - we're talking past each other | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:02:08] <jl2012> "using the same data".... in the BIP112 example, you mean the public keys of Alice and Bob in the script? (actually the example is wrong for using "key hash". Should be "pubkey") | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:04:04] <jl2012> fix: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/411 | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:12:56] <petertodd> yeah, so I see your point now; you're just making the argument that for any difference, just add more versions of the script repeating the same code | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:13:50] <jl2012> yes | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:16:25] <petertodd> might make sense to not call this "MAST" but rather "multi-script" | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:16:37] <petertodd> it's not really an abstract syntax tree anymore | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:17:51] <jl2012> oh, that's my understanding of MAST......what's the difference? | 11:43 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:18:59] <jl2012> AFAIK, there has been no clear spec for MAST. That's my understanding | 11:44 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:19:20] <petertodd> well, with MAST I'd expect multiple branches to share the same stack | 11:44 |
| jl2012 | [2016-06-24 02:20:26] <jl2012> same stack? why and how? Alice won't have the signature of Bob, for example | 11:44 |
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| bramc | Some commentary from me about writing software for banks https://medium.com/@bramcohen/clean-up-your-state-8d0500b4f48e#.srb67yutm | 15:41 |
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| kanzure | bramc: arguably all of that should be a giant state machine with events and transitions instead | 15:51 |
| kanzure | bramc: with perfect rollback support | 15:51 |
| bramc | kanzure: State machine, asynchronous message passing, enforced invariants on balances. All those things are good ideas. But they're fancy and applicable in only a few circumstances. The first things to do is to learn to code like you graduated from junior high. | 15:53 |
| kanzure | and message queues. giant message queues, enough to make mulesoft cry. | 15:53 |
| kanzure | well re: junior high that's more of a lemon market problem (e.g. hard to tell whether the guys at the other end of your API call are morons or have implemented a pile of shit) | 15:54 |
| bramc | Putting calls at the end of methods (or right before a return), even calls to internal methods within the same class, is something I've been doing reflexively for the last twenty years | 15:58 |
| bramc | There's no downside to doing it right. | 15:58 |
| kanzure | yes yes, and people stuff variable definitions near the top of their methods, etc. | 15:58 |
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| kanzure | wei dai doing a thesis defense on "statistical methods in cryptography" http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/news/events/ms-thesis-defense-wei-dai | 18:22 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 24 00:00:39 2016 | ||
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