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| fluffypony | http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~polakis/papers/sivakorn_eurosp16.pdf | 04:07 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | .title | 04:07 |
| yoleaux | fluffypony: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 04:07 |
| fluffypony | .t | 04:07 |
| yoleaux | Wed, 29 Jun 2016 11:07:45 UTC | 04:07 |
| fluffypony | lol | 04:08 |
| fluffypony | "Deep Learning to Break Semantic Image CAPTCHAs" | 04:09 |
| fluffypony | basically they use Google Translate and Google Images to break reCaptchas | 04:10 |
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| kanzure | any last minute topics for this? https://www.w3.org/2016/04/blockchain-workshop/ | 05:28 |
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| fluffypony | "Ledger interchange formats and protocols" <- that's going to be fun | 05:35 |
| katu_ | oh great, w3c designing standards ;_; | 05:38 |
| kanzure | "whatever it is that you do, just put it in a browser, that's definitely the right thing to do" :) | 05:38 |
| fluffypony | "so we're settling on JSON as the interchange format, right guys?" | 05:38 |
| kanzure | "netflix wants some DRM? sure we can find an academic reason for that..." | 05:40 |
| kanzure | "yea i used to work on ethereum" - tadge, "maybe they need you back" | 05:40 |
| fluffypony | lol | 05:45 |
| kanzure | irc.w3.org #blockchain | 05:45 |
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| maaku | kanzure: are you participating | 05:58 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/intro/ | 06:04 |
| kanzure | https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/748139999623798789 | 06:04 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/wendy/ | 06:21 |
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| JackH | do we have any documentation explaining some potential use cases for OP_CSV/OP_CLTV beside lightning/payment channels? | 06:28 |
| maaku | JackH: the sidechain peg uses CSV | 06:33 |
| JackH | I thought that required additional opcodes to fully verify maaku | 06:34 |
| maaku | yes it does | 06:34 |
| maaku | you didn't specify current bitcoin script only ;) | 06:34 |
| maaku | one of the many opcodes required is CSV | 06:34 |
| JackH | the portion that wont be working is fully validating sidechain tokens on the Bitcoin blockchain right? | 06:35 |
| JackH | its still not "aware" as far as I understand | 06:35 |
| JackH | even with CSV | 06:36 |
| JackH | I actually wanted to talk to you about this: | 06:38 |
| JackH | BIP 68 and 112 (CSV) let you start the clock only when the channel is being closed out, which has two primary implications: channel close-out can be much faster (configurable, but realistically a few days in the worst case), and channels never expire. Pretty cool. | 06:38 |
| JackH | CSV is also useful for the sidechain 2-way peg, or any other application that involves waiting for things to settle or to see if anyone can provide a fraud proof. | 06:38 |
| JackH | (I invented CSV. Ping me if you have other questions.) | 06:38 |
| JackH | you wrote that on reddit at some point | 06:38 |
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| JackH | could I "bind" my op_cltv & op_csv transaction with my sidechain op_cltv & op_csv transaction to form a pegging that way? so that I "bind" tokens on the secondary layer together? | 06:40 |
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| jl2012 | JackH: buying fidelity bond with OP_CSV: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134827.0 | 06:42 |
| jl2012 | petertodd did mention the idea of relative locktime on this topic. But I can't find the post | 06:43 |
| jl2012 | relative locktime is more reliable for this purpose, as it ensures that the redeem tx must be known to the public for a certain amount of time | 06:45 |
| jl2012 | a long enough CLTV is ok too | 06:46 |
| JackH | well we have both now, so we are good | 06:46 |
| jl2012 | using CSV/CLTV is much easier than petertodd's idea in 2013 | 06:47 |
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| JackH | I just want to go away from the over exploited op_return and the counterparty way of doing things | 06:50 |
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| maaku | JackH: i'd probably need more specific info, as I'm not sure what you mean by "bind your [mainchain] transaction with your sidechain transaction" | 06:52 |
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| JackH | I am thinking about a previous conversation on IRC where luke questions if lightning can be build on top of lightning. With that type of layers of abstractions, I can imagine intertwining layers from multiple chains, in order to make use of Bitcoins as tokens to perform some actions required (some contract execution or a more complex function) | 06:54 |
| JackH | binding = perform computational operations by requiring Bitcoins as part of the process | 06:55 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | yes, it's theoretically to treat payments on LN as circuits | 06:56 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | theoretically possible, imean | 06:56 |
| jl2012 | JackH: pathological gambler may use CLTV/CSV to securely lock their money | 06:56 |
| JackH | now that is a service! | 06:57 |
| JackH | but it still requires Bitcoin, as money for the gambler, which means he needs to exchange into BtC | 06:58 |
| JackH | I want to use the secondary layers as features for computations, and for example use them as part of larger executions that for instance originate in a sidechain (just to keep the protocal layer identical) | 06:58 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/arvind-narayanan/ | 08:02 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | THANKS KANZURE <3 <3 <3 | 08:04 |
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| petertodd | jl2012: yeah, I need to do a quick writeup/standard on csv for fidelity bonds | 08:27 |
| JackH | petertodd, it would be great if you can include general CSV potential cases | 08:28 |
| petertodd | JackH: iirc the bip has those written up | 08:28 |
| JackH | petertodd, I noticed a few things were mentioned yes | 08:28 |
| JackH | I guess I keep going back to my own idea about mixing channel tx's via CSV with other scripts....ill figure it out eventually myself | 08:29 |
| JackH | like GreenIsMyPepper pointed out | 08:30 |
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| Chris_Stewart_5 | Can you think of all consensus rules in bitcoin right now as a mathematical set R, and the set of all possible consensus rules as the mathematical set S, if we add a softfork, is that softfork increasing the cardinality of set R by one? | 08:56 |
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| Chris_Stewart_5 | and any removal of an element from set R is a hardfork? | 08:57 |
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| maaku | Chris_Stewart_5: sure i suppose. a specific hard fork can introduce more than one rule though | 09:51 |
| maaku | gah, specific soft fork | 09:51 |
| Chris_Stewart_5 | Seems like that is more of an implementation details rather than the abstract concept of a soft fork | 09:54 |
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| maaku | sure | 10:01 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/privacy-anonymity-and-identity-group/ | 10:08 |
| maaku | "ephemeral identity" is an oxymoron, no? | 10:13 |
| katu_ | ton of political blabbering, but no mention of zooko's triangle whatsoever :( | 10:13 |
| kanzure | i got there late | 10:14 |
| katu_ | ah | 10:14 |
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| fluffypony | katu_: not that it would've been mentioned, but anyway | 10:28 |
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| katu_ | i presume they just plan to obscure it under ton of consensus fluff like gnunet did | 10:29 |
| katu_ | so that people magically believe theres a way to do it w/o drawbacks of name/price speculation. | 10:29 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/groups-identity/ | 10:49 |
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| kanzure | Adiabat: irc.w3.org #blockchain #blockchain-chat | 11:01 |
| kanzure | plus we have fluffypony available for shitposting, so that's nice | 11:01 |
| kanzure | fluffypony: everyone immediately agreed that you are splendid for this | 11:02 |
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| fluffypony | hah hah | 11:04 |
| fluffypony | I trye | 11:04 |
| fluffypony | *try | 11:04 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/archival-science/ | 11:11 |
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| kvnn | Hello | 12:13 |
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| kvnn | can I currently use nLockTime to create a tx w/ output1, and then create another tx w/ output1 without a time lock, in order to invalidate the first transaction? | 12:16 |
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| kvnn | the time-locked transaction is just an "unconfirmed transaction" until the "minimal time" is reached, right? | 12:23 |
| helo | kvnn: it's invalid, and needs to be broadcast after the time is reached | 12:25 |
| kvnn | what if its broadcast before the time is reached? | 12:25 |
| helo | it's treated as an invalid transaction | 12:25 |
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| kvnn | so the answer to my first question would be "yes", right? | 12:27 |
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| kvnn | if that first tx is broadcast after the time-lock, its still going to be invalid b/c the output was already spent | 12:27 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/w3-blockchain-workshop-2016/physical-assets/ | 13:13 |
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| kanzure | Taek: petertodd: food soon? | 13:52 |
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| bsm117532 | How's the workshop going? | 14:24 |
| fluffypony | boring | 14:25 |
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| bsm117532 | I'd expect as much from W3C... | 14:27 |
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| el33th4x0r | paging segwit experts for a quick question | 18:55 |
| bsm117532 | I don't claim to be an expert, but I've been banging my head against it for a few days... | 18:56 |
| el33th4x0r | great, any help would be much appreciated. here's the question: | 18:56 |
| phantomcircuit | el33th4x0r, sol.gfxile.net/dontask.html | 18:56 |
| bsm117532 | also, ask first on IRC :-P | 18:56 |
| el33th4x0r | haha, i tried reading the BIPs and this is easier. also i'm getting older and lazier! | 18:57 |
| el33th4x0r | is it the case that, with the current soft fork implementation of segwit, that a non-Segwit-aware node is expected to ferry segwit transactions to other nodes? | 18:57 |
| el33th4x0r | they would appear as anyone-can-spends to them. | 18:58 |
| el33th4x0r | but i'm not sure if they (non-segwit supporting, minority nodes) are expected to be able to ferry them on the p2p layer to the segwit-supporting majority miners. | 18:58 |
| bsm117532 | el33th4x0r: As far as I understand, that is correct. | 18:58 |
| el33th4x0r | "that is corect" -> they should be able to ferry them? | 18:59 |
| bsm117532 | correct. | 18:59 |
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| bsm117532 | AFAIK there is no reason non-upgraded nodes would/could censor segwit transactions in blocks, or in the p2p layer. | 18:59 |
| kanzure | el33th4x0r: are you in boston | 18:59 |
| el33th4x0r | ok, great, that's what i thought initially, but was not sure. | 18:59 |
| kanzure | or was that a one-time thing | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | @kanzure: no, boring old ithaca. are you guys licing it up at mit? | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | living* | 19:00 |
| bsm117532 | But, please get a second opinion. I've only been looking at it for a couple days. | 19:00 |
| kanzure | yea lots of lice | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | haha | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | no lice or bedbugs i hope | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | there was some DAO event in Boston I gather, but I'm not part of it. | 19:00 |
| el33th4x0r | I emailed Eric Lombrozo and @gmaxwell | 19:01 |
| phantomcircuit | el33th4x0r, nodes which are not segwit aware will not relay the segwit data | 19:01 |
| kanzure | in general i would recommend asking on irc instead of emailing those two | 19:01 |
| bsm117532 | busy bees bee busy. | 19:02 |
| kanzure | also #bitcoin-core-dev and #segwit-dev (although i think #segwit-dev is morally wrong) | 19:02 |
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| bsm117532 | short and sweet. At least he could have bought us dinner? | 19:03 |
| midnightmagic | lice is a big problem with kids fresh out of highschool. No clue how to keep themselves clean when their parents have been helicoptering for the prior 12 years. | 19:03 |
| * midnightmagic shudders | 19:03 | |
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| el33th4x0r | Sorry, back in discussion | 19:05 |
| el33th4x0r | So, segwit xactions will not be ferried by non-supporting nodes? | 19:06 |
| el33th4x0r | Even though they appear as anyone can spends. | 19:06 |
| bsm117532 | So el33th4x0r AFAIK the transactions will be "ferried", meaning non-upgraded nodes will have an accurate UTXO set. However, the data to actually validate the segwit transactions is NOT ferried. | 19:06 |
| el33th4x0r | Oooofff. That's even more complicated than I thought | 19:07 |
| el33th4x0r | Phantom: do you agree? | 19:07 |
| bsm117532 | The segwit data is definitely not ferried. The non-upgraded node sees a bunch of anyone-can-spends going to other anyone-can-spends. It's valid as far as the old protocol is concerned. | 19:08 |
| bsm117532 | IMHO I would have deliberately built such a mechanism in from the beginning, if I were Satoshi. | 19:09 |
| el33th4x0r | Upon receiving such a transaction, the segwit supporting nodes would do nothing, right? They'd have to receive it from a segwit node, with the witnesses. | 19:09 |
| bsm117532 | Please be more specific about "receiving such a transaction"? | 19:10 |
| bsm117532 | Yes they'd have to receive it from a segwit node. | 19:10 |
| el33th4x0r | A new segwit xaction ferried by a non-segwit supporting node | 19:11 |
| bsm117532 | Perhaps this is what you're looking for? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0144.mediawiki | 19:11 |
| el33th4x0r | Thanks, I read that but it wasn't clear on this issue | 19:12 |
| bsm117532 | I *think* that is the p2p layer for segwit relays. | 19:12 |
| bsm117532 | Seems rather thin, I spent exactly 0.5s scrolling through it. But then, that's not my concern at the moment. | 19:12 |
| el33th4x0r | So for segwit to activate and be useful, we need buy in from miners, plus we need sufficient supportfrom relay nodes so xactions can find a pathto supporting miners? | 19:14 |
| bsm117532 | Ah now I see what you're getting at. | 19:14 |
| jl2012 | el33th4x04: "ferry" means "relay"? | 19:15 |
| bsm117532 | No, non-upgraded relay nodes will relay all soft-fork segwit transactions. (AFAIK, please someone correct or second me) | 19:15 |
| el33th4x0r | @jl2012: yes | 19:15 |
| jl2012 | old nodes do not relay unconfirmed segwit tx, as they are non-standard to them. Same principle applies to CSV, CLTV, BIP66 softforks | 19:16 |
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| el33th4x0r | Ok, that makes sense. | 19:17 |
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| el33th4x0r | I.e not what I initially thought, but perfectly fine this way | 19:18 |
| el33th4x0r | Many thanks for all the help. Greatly appreciate it. | 19:20 |
| jl2012 | for CSV vs. segwit, there is no difference in terms of tx relay. But block relay indeed has a difference | 19:22 |
| jl2012 | because unupgraded nodes cannot relay witness | 19:22 |
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| jl2012 | blocks could be relayed without any problem as new<--> new, old<--> old, new --> old; but not old --> new | 19:24 |
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| el33th4x0r | So an old node would never even encounter a segwit TX until it is encased in a block, right? | 19:25 |
| el33th4x0r | At which time, it looks like an anyone can spend | 19:26 |
| jl2012 | yes, they will just ignore all unconfirmed segwit tx | 19:26 |
| el33th4x0r | Great. Much appreciate the clarity. | 19:26 |
| jl2012 | same for unconfirmed CSV tx | 19:26 |
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| jl2012 | actually segwit softfork is similar in some way as the P2SH BIP16 softfork | 19:27 |
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| jl2012 | for old nodes, segwit and P2SH both look like unsigned tx | 19:28 |
| jl2012 | i.e. any-one-can-spend | 19:28 |
| jl2012 | especially for the segwit-in-P2SH mode. It's property is very similar to the original P2SH softfok | 19:30 |
| jl2012 | i.e. the tx is not anyone-can-spend, until it is actually spent | 19:30 |
| el33th4x0r | So it would be foolhardy to send a segwit TX before the soft fork had activated? | 19:31 |
| el33th4x0r | Because the non-sw miners can include it as an anyone can spend. | 19:31 |
| jl2012 | bitcoind does not allow you to do so by default, for obvious reason | 19:31 |
| jl2012 | so, only if you do it manually | 19:32 |
| el33th4x0r | Ok, that makes sense. It's be dumb to do so. | 19:32 |
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| jl2012 | and even if you do it manually, you can't get the witness data recorded to the blockchain, even for upgraded nodes | 19:33 |
| el33th4x0r | Right. | 19:33 |
| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/YourPaperSucks/status/532976417366372352 | 19:36 |
| yoleaux | “I am afraid this manuscript may contribute not so much towards the field’s advancement as much as toward its eventual demise.” (@YourPaperSucks) | 19:36 |
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| * bsm117532 recalls every string theory paper, ever. | 20:05 | |
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| fluffypony | https://hashcat.net/forum/thread-5559.html <- oclHashCat and HashCat are now merged | 23:54 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 30 00:00:44 2016 | ||
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