| --- Log opened Fri Aug 05 00:00:14 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Aug 05 2016 | ||
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| instagibbs | Taek, fwiw I'm getting less convinced on the history-skipping stuff. But yes CT-OWAS is exciting by itself | 05:55 |
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| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:31 |
| wizkid057 | hmm | 08:32 |
| * Luke_Jr slaps wizkid057 around a bit with a large trout | 08:32 | |
| * wizkid057 slaps Luke_Jr around a bit with a large trout | 08:32 | |
| * Luke_Jr slaps wizkid057 around a bit with a large trout | 08:32 | |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin! | 08:33 |
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| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin! | 08:38 |
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| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:48 |
| wizkid057 | no, I can explode them to 30x what they're worth. PM me instead. | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin. | 08:49 |
| wizkid057 | gmaxwell midnightmagic warren petertodd luke-jr phantomcircuit | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | uuu expart cry baby!!! | 08:49 |
| Luke_Jr | ba ba ba | 08:49 |
| wizkid057 | lol | 08:50 |
| Luke_Jr | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:50 |
| Luke_Jr | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:50 |
| Luke_Jr | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:50 |
| Luke_Jr | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:50 |
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| wizkid057 | no more exploding? | 08:55 |
| htyutut | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:56 |
| htyutut | ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba | 08:56 |
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| @iwilcox | D'oh. | 09:24 |
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| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@veltion1.static.otenet.gr$#bitcoin-bans] by wizkid057 | 11:00 | |
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| maaku | So I made the surprising (to me) observation that one could have different proof of works for selecting transactions and for the most-work rule | 11:27 |
| maaku | You do this by having an "inner" chain that contains transactions, and an "outer" chain that merge mines the inner chain. | 11:28 |
| maaku | (This is the soft-fork merge mining scheme.) | 11:28 |
| maaku | But you're free to choose different proof of work algorithms for the inner and outer chains. | 11:28 |
| maaku | E.g. the inner scheme could be something relatively ASIC resistant, and the outer scheme be sha256. | 11:29 |
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| maaku | Whether that's an improvement or not I leave as an exercise.. | 11:29 |
| bsm117532 | How can they be merge-mined if they're different algos? Merge mining implies that a PoW for one can satisfy the PoW for the other... | 11:30 |
| maaku | The fact that you could soft-fork in a merge mining scheme was also surprising to me, although it perhaps shouldn't have been (it's basically the same as etotheipi's scheme from 2012) | 11:30 |
| maaku | bsm117532: I don't think that's a useful definition of merge mining. In fact it actually implies vulnerability to a specific attack. | 11:31 |
| bsm117532 | Ok then can you elaborate on your definition? ;-) | 11:31 |
| maaku | Merge mining here means the outer block contains a commitment to the inner block history. | 11:31 |
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| bsm117532 | Hmmm why not merge mine everything then? e.g. put commitments to the history of an altcoin (or multiple alt coins). It would enable cross-chain trading... | 11:33 |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@38.121.165.30$#bitcoin-bans] by wizkid057 | 11:33 | |
| -!- bsm117532 was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by wizkid057 [the blockchain doesnt want to be exploded... explode yourself.] | 11:33 | |
| arubi | I want to see that regex... | 11:35 |
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| maaku | bsm1175321: indeed, merge mine all the things | 11:37 |
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| maaku | wizkid057: wtf? | 11:46 |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o gmaxwell] by ChanServ | 11:52 | |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-b *!*@38.121.165.30$#bitcoin-bans] by gmaxwell | 11:52 | |
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| @gmaxwell | maaku: he has some script that is banning the spammer, but it appears his regexp needs work. | 11:53 |
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| bsm117532 | Anyway, yes it's generally possible. I've been thinking about this for braids. Though the merge mining you describe is essentially an altcoin though, there's no common UTXO set. I'd want to checkpoint the inner braid txns back to the outer blocks. Though, the restrictions of the outer network rules may be onerous... :-/ | 11:58 |
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| @wizkid057 | bsm117532: my apologies | 12:09 |
| @wizkid057 | seems I screwed up a modification to my script earlier | 12:09 |
| bsm117532 | wizkid057: no worries, thanks for taking care of the exploder | 12:09 |
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| FNinTak | @kanzure Yes, along with many others | 20:45 |
| kanzure | hm okay. maybe something can be done to get a list of research questions then. | 20:45 |
| FNinTak | as of OP I found a list of sorts here: https://bitcoincore.org/en/about/sponsorship/programme/ | 20:47 |
| FNinTak | not sure how comprehensive that is though | 20:48 |
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| FNinTak | Also, an interesting concept came up today: miners running relay networks to pre-broadcast | 20:49 |
| FNinTak | transactions they have included in the block they are working on | 20:49 |
| FNinTak | This would allow for CMPCT blocks to still be used; subscribing to a PrefilledTransaction feed | 20:52 |
| @gmaxwell | sounds like weakblocks, except in weakblocks access to publish in that feed is that feed is arbritrated by hashpower and they can publish transactions they intend to include but haven't included yet. | 20:54 |
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| FNinTak | In that case, the feed data wouldn't help with compact block usage then? | 20:59 |
| FNinTak | though in the relay case there is no guarantee of the integrity of the pre-broadcast data | 20:59 |
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| sipa | in weak blocks, miners broadcast blocks that almost satisfy the proof of work... let's say 1/10th of the required difficulty | 21:00 |
| sipa | nodes on the network remember the last few weak blocks that they have seen | 21:00 |
| sipa | and the transactions in those become available to compact block relay | 21:00 |
| @gmaxwell | not just "in those" but in an additional commitment which is only used for the weak block. | 21:01 |
| @gmaxwell | so you can advertise that you'd like to include a transaction but only actually try to include it once you believe it has been well propagated. | 21:01 |
| sipa | then you can go a step further, and fully validate weak blocks ahead of time, and cache their validation result... if a later full block is found identical to a previously received weak block, nothing needs to be relayed at all | 21:02 |
| sipa | apart from coinbase and nonce | 21:02 |
| @gmaxwell | which is much more efficient than BIP152 compact blocks. | 21:02 |
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| FNinTak | For any given block only 1 weak version needs to be broadcast though, correct? | 21:03 |
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| sipa | well if the weak block difficulty is 1/10th of the full block difficulty, you'll see on average 10 of them | 21:03 |
| @gmaxwell | no weak version /needs/ to be broadcast. | 21:03 |
| sipa | but they can reuse each other's transactions of course for relay | 21:03 |
| FNinTak | What is the benefit of the following 9? wrt. improving compact block caching | 21:04 |
| sipa | increasing the chance | 21:05 |
| @gmaxwell | they continue to update the set of includable transactions, since they'd be sent differentially to prior blocks, (e.g. BIP152 or more efficient) they don't cost much of anything themselves. | 21:05 |
| sipa | if the weak block difficulty was only 1/2 of the full block difficulty, there would be a high chance that no weak block at all would have been found | 21:05 |
| sipa | in between two full blocks | 21:05 |
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| FNinTak | Mmm, ok i agree; can also use BIP152-like broadcast for the weak blocks themselves | 21:06 |
| kanzure | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/weakblocks.txt | 21:07 |
| kanzure | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/lowlatency.block.xfer.txt | 21:07 |
| kanzure | http://popeller.io/index.php/2016/01/19/weak-blocks-the-good-and-the-bad/ | 21:07 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3m2wpf/bitcoindev_weak_block_thoughts/cvbre8i | 21:07 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-02.log | 21:07 |
| @gmaxwell | in any case considerations for them is different because they're not at all latency critical. meaning their transmission can heavily optimize for bandwidth efficiency. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-11-09.log | 21:07 |
| kanzure | https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011158.html | 21:07 |
| @gmaxwell | sipa: amusingly "weak blocks" doesn't need anything weak at all. | 21:08 |
| @gmaxwell | Imagine instead, whenever you mine you include a list of transactions you'd like the network to include 3 blocks from now. The transactions you do include are the ones from the commitment from the block three ago. | 21:08 |
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| @gmaxwell | and you don't require that precommitment data to arrive with a block, instead it can arrive later. | 21:09 |
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| @gmaxwell | and it doesn't have to be validated... it just gives access to the communication channel to achieve reliable broadcast of transactions. | 21:09 |
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| FNinTak | If that were required it would allow for more censorship by miners | 21:15 |
| FNinTak | though miners exhibit similar behavior in the wild already so that's unlikely | 21:16 |
| Taek | Miners already have the final say in what gets onto the blockchain. Weak blocks give more opportunity for non-rogue miners to broadcast potential transactions | 21:16 |
| FNinTak | Fair; the xiph write-up makes this clearer | 21:21 |
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| FNinTak | Also @maaku in that scheme is proof still done over blocks on inner chain or individual transactions? | 21:26 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Aug 06 00:00:18 2016 | ||
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