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| ryan-c | Is there a function is libsecp256k1 to double a key? | 07:41 |
|---|---|---|
| sipa | there is secp256k1_ec_pubkey_tweak_mul | 07:42 |
| sipa | which you could pass the number 2 | 07:42 |
| sipa | it will be several times slower than needed, though | 07:42 |
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| andytoshi | ryan-c: #secp256k1 pls | 08:12 |
| ryan-c | oh, is that a thing? | 08:12 |
| andytoshi | yep :) | 08:12 |
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| andytoshi | this https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/628.pdf was posted here as a candidate for post-quantum homomorphic commitments... this isn't homorphic in a general way because if you add too many commitments together the noise becomes overwhelming and then the commitment can't be opened anymore (my read of the paper is that it becomes unopenable -- it can't be openable to a value except the sum of committed | 11:05 |
| andytoshi | values no matter what you do) | 11:05 |
| andytoshi | i had thought this was a killer for CT because it depends on being able to add up transactions with (aside from non-crypto limits) arbitrary size.. and definitely a killer for MW which puts no limits on how many commitments a verifier might need to add together | 11:06 |
| andytoshi | but now i'm thinking it could potentially be ok (modulo the scheme being OK), because actually in CT only individual outputs are ever opened (sorta - the rangeproof is a zero-knowledge proof of opening i guess), not sums | 11:07 |
| andytoshi | all we care about sums is that they total to 0 -- not a commitment to zero, but the actual (value 0, blinding 0) infinity point | 11:07 |
| andytoshi | and this could be done by having the noise cancel out. the stats to show that this is hiding seem very involved, but i don't see a conceptual barrier | 11:08 |
| kanzure | "functional commitments" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/766 | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | andytoshi's idea for "ask the receiver to sign a message with their key to show that they can actually use any coins that might be sent to them" should probaby be integrated into a test stage in future payment protocols | 12:01 |
| kanzure | also, regarding my vague mumblings about a p2p transaction scheme where you only send coins once you are sure your recipient is running bitcoin rules, i think andytoshi may have thought of a way to do that? | 12:03 |
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| kanzure | well, more specifically, the problem i was trying to solve was "only send coins if you are reasonably sure that the recipient is running bitcoin software, or that they are outsourcing to a third-party that is running bitcoin software" | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | 11:56 <andytoshi> so then they could compute the root of the UTXOset, snark that in some way that also proves knowledge of their secret key (so it's not outsourceable) and there you go | 12:12 |
| kanzure | 11:57 <andytoshi> ok, the utxoset at some well-buried blockheight i guess | 12:12 |
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| andytoshi | you could probably do something cheaper than a snark, like signing a utxo then using the signature as a random seed to select more utxos to sign, and so on | 12:14 |
| kanzure | this proves possession of utxo set. i think you the sender needs to tell the recipient some salt to get evidence that some sort of computation is being done? | 12:17 |
| kanzure | s/possession of/access to/ | 12:17 |
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| kanzure | tying to the operation of VerifyScript somehow would be nice. | 12:28 |
| kanzure | you could have both parties join a regtest network and test each other with consensus validation scenarios for tiny chains. this would be in addition to various utxos + the recipient's signature. | 12:34 |
| kanzure | (er, *in addition to the nearly-random walk over the utxo set (the random seed idea above)) | 12:35 |
| kanzure | the reasoning there is that if someone is running infrastructure that correctly handles regtest test scenarios, then perhaps they are also using the same/any/some rules for actual mainnet validation | 12:41 |
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| kanzure | "USBee: Air-gap covert-channel via electromagnetic emission from USB" http://cyber.bgu.ac.il/t/USBee.pdf | 14:18 |
| kanzure | "[.. using software to make unmodified USB devices into an RF transmitter.] Similar airgap-jumping attacks from the same team include AirHopper, which turns a computer's video card into an FM transmitter; BitWhisper, which relies on the exchange of heat-induced "thermal pings"; GSMem, which relies on cellular frequencies; and Fansmitter, which uses noise emitted by a computer fan to transmit data. [...] a technique that used inaudible ... | 14:21 |
| kanzure | ... audio signals to covertly transmit keystrokes and other sensitive data from air-gapped machines." or the one about keystroke audio analysis. | 14:21 |
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| FNinTak | Seems like most of those could be addressed w/ Faraday-like case...which makes the Fansmitter method most interesting imho | 14:23 |
| FNinTak | Only solution I can think of is two-phase immersion cooling | 14:23 |
| katu | fansmitter baud rate is so low you it's almost on the level of PSU-smitter | 14:25 |
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| katu | that is, induction meter on the outside of building, and burn/dont burn cpu cycles. 1bps if luck and ton of FEC. | 14:25 |
| FNinTak | Sounds preventable w/ false loads, similar to methods for constant-time crypto libraries | 14:27 |
| FNinTak | though i doubt that countermeasure would ever get implemented | 14:27 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: what was the problem with snarking the consensus rules, again? | 14:27 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: (a) it's expensive, (b) it doesn't prove that anyone is actually using the bitcoin software for consensus, they can produce the snark then replay it into whatever they're client actually using | 14:28 |
| kanzure | what is bad about replay? it's a unique proof for each transaction, right? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | *during each transaction setup ritual | 14:29 |
| andytoshi | well what are you trying to accomplish? | 14:30 |
| andytoshi | you say "prove that somebody is running the bitcoin consensus rules" but all you're proving is that they are using something related to those rules in a payment ritual | 14:30 |
| kanzure | goal is to only send coins once you are reasonably sure that the recipient is capable of running validation rules (or, capable of contracting with a third-party to run those validation rules) in such a way that the results are unique to the particular interaction | 14:31 |
| kanzure | i think "it's not proof that they are running the same rules for mainnet validation" might be okay. the argument would be that the infrastructure is somewhat similar, so at least you know it's not impossible for them to arrange it ((i mean this says nothing about throughput or capacity...)) | 14:32 |
| kanzure | and the previous construction, above, is proof that they have utxo data available somehow, which yes already seems to be an improvement over not doing anything at all | 14:34 |
| katu | FNinTak: no need for dummy loads, just need really clever UPS system which can act as a giant capacitor to smooth the spikes. turns out thats pretty difficult to do accurately though. anyhow, btcw offtopic. | 14:35 |
| kanzure | to ensure uniqueness of the interaction with the recipient, the sender has to provide some salt or input that somehow changes the output of the computations on the recipient's side. | 14:35 |
| kanzure | katu: sounds somewhat on-topic to me. | 14:35 |
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| katu | can use induction meter to confirm/deny yep, that DC is full of mining equipment :) | 14:36 |
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| FNinTak | Mildly related: Has there been any thought/work re: only storing the transaction graph as an SPV mode? | 14:47 |
| FNinTak | As in, the SPV client connects to many full nodes to sync only data re: addresses & txos; after sync that client will be aware of UTXO set + be able to do fast proofs of exclusion/etc. | 14:48 |
| katu | you dont want to store it, you just want to prove the utxo is real. utxo commitments. | 14:49 |
| katu | storing the graph amounts pretty much storing transaction history as such. | 14:49 |
| FNinTak | true, though sigs & scripts need not be stored here, which should save a significant amount of space | 14:53 |
| FNinTak | identifiers can also be compressed re: radix tree per block or something similar | 14:54 |
| katu | not really. if pushed, about by factor of 10 | 14:54 |
| FNinTak | is there some reference reading on utxo commitments? my understanding is probably not up to spec | 14:54 |
| katu | thats too low, better than fixed compression ratio is currently sought | 14:54 |
| katu | FNinTak: its a very lengthy topic. this looks like a good summary, maybe slightly out of date https://github.com/DavidVorick/knosys/blob/master/Utxo%20Commitments.md | 14:55 |
| FNinTak | Are you accounting for graph trimming/proving? I.e. rolling graph of last 1000 blocks | 14:55 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Verifying%20computations%20without%20reexecuting%20them:%20from%20theoretical%20possibility%20to%20near%20practicality.pdf | 14:55 |
| katu | FNinTak: yes, some schemes involve variations of merkle trees of commitments from which you just cherrypick what you want, thus keeping the bw requirements at bay. i think it was sipe or andytoshis? | 14:56 |
| katu | *sipa's | 14:56 |
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| FNinTak | Thank you for links! Will be catching up, so far looks like similar work has been done | 15:10 |
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| FNinTak | sipa's ultrapune looks like the closest concept/implementation... | 15:17 |
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| sipa | ultraprune is just the name of the database/storage design in bitcoin core since 0.8 | 15:19 |
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| sipa | it's not a commitment scheme | 15:20 |
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| pero | 99.8% synced and getting killed | 17:58 |
| pero | come on | 17:58 |
| pero | oops wrong chan | 17:58 |
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| brg444 | was this posted http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/824.pdf | 19:23 |
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| amiller | no i dont think so yet | 19:57 |
| moli | is it something very new? | 20:06 |
| pero | june | 20:09 |
| brg444 | there are apparently some novel stuff in the link | 20:10 |
| brg444 | coinshuffle++ was out already I believe? | 20:10 |
| pero | they refer to it in the paper | 20:12 |
| kanzure | use the timestamp instead of guessing (2016-08-24) | 20:14 |
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| pero | http://textlab.io/doc/8650295/p2p-mixing-and-unlinkable-p2p-transactions | 20:15 |
| brg444 | yeah https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1497271 | 20:16 |
| pero | wild guess | 20:16 |
| moli | oh i didn't know the number 824 indicates the date | 20:20 |
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| kanzure | it doesn't. example: http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/823 | 20:26 |
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| moli | lol :P | 21:23 |
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