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| eggcoin | hello, i had an encrypted wallet in my encrypted home directory. i reformated. but didnt format my home directory, i did change my password though. will i be able to retrieve themm | 01:52 |
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| fluffypony | eggcoin: #bitcoin | 02:11 |
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| fluffypony | moli: I also thought that for a second | 03:01 |
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| bsm1175321 | What's the latest on Mimblewimble? | 05:46 |
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| kanzure | bsm1175321: see the following, | 06:22 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4vub3y/mimblewimble_noninteractive_coinjoin_and_better/ | 06:22 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4woyc0/mimblewimble_interview_with_andrew_poelstra_and/ | 06:22 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4xge51/mimblewimble_how_a_strippeddown_version_of/ | 06:22 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4y4ezm/mimblewimble_how_a_strippeddown_version_of/ | 06:22 |
| bsm1175321 | Thanks! I looked for code and didn't see any on github. I'm thinking of taking a stab at it. | 06:22 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-08-02.log | 06:23 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-08-03.log | 06:23 |
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| bsm1175321 | @kanzure I've read all of those. I'm wondering if anyone has plans to make a testnet or something of that sort. | 06:26 |
| kanzure | amiller: re: your link, see these two: | 06:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/P2P%20mixing%20and%20unlinkable%20p2p%20transactions%20-%20Anonymity%20of%20the%20people,%20by%20the%20people,%20and%20for%20the%20people%20-%202016.pdf | 06:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/P2P%20mixing%20and%20unlinkable%20p2p%20transactions%20-%20Scalable%20strong%20anonymity%20without%20external%20routers%20-%20coinshuffle++%20-%202016.pdf | 06:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/coinshuffle_code.tar.gz | 06:26 |
| kanzure | bsm1175321: andytoshi has been working on some of the math and i think he'll be giving a presentation at scalingbitcoin.org in a few weeks, although i don't know about his plans for an implementation | 06:27 |
| bsm1175321 | Scaling Bitcoin sold out. :-( I might not be going... | 06:27 |
| kanzure | physical attendance might not be necessary | 06:28 |
| sipa | bsm1175321: send in a proposal, i'm sure there are tickets for speakers | 06:28 |
| kanzure | yes, more proposals are needed | 06:28 |
| kanzure | in fact, please send two | 06:29 |
| kanzure | or more | 06:29 |
| kanzure | send 1<=x<=3 sentences to proposals@scalingbitcoin.org | 06:30 |
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| bsm1175321 | Heh Ok! | 06:39 |
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| bsm1175321 | I've got the consensus rules worked out for braids, and adding a simple transaction system would be next for a testnet. Braided Mimblewimble seems like a good testnet idea and I think I can do it in less than a month. | 06:40 |
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| andytoshi | bsm1175321: i'm also screwing around with MW consensus rules, but i don't have anything on github because it's still at the "rewrite half the code every other day" stage of development | 08:13 |
| andytoshi | but i have some agressive scaling ideas that i don't think will be compatible with braids | 08:13 |
| bsm117532 | andytoshi: I hear you. | 08:14 |
| bsm117532 | Well I'm looking at making a toy testnet by the time of Scaling in Milan, and I need to add a transaction system... | 08:14 |
| bsm117532 | andytoshi: what aggressive scaling ideas? I'm also considering ways to shard the UTXO set...which has nothing to do with braids but I might include anyway... | 08:14 |
| andytoshi | ok, we can cooperate on doing a transaction system, all i had been planning to do was copy the bitcoin transaction graph onto a MW chain | 08:17 |
| andytoshi | a testnet would involve p2p code and stuff, that's a whole nother thing.. | 08:18 |
| bsm117532 | I've long had an idea involving UTXO set commitments -- when the UTXO set is shareded, miners require proofs that an output is unspent in order to mine a transaction involving part of the UTXO set they're not holding. Unfortunately the best I can come up with is log(n) sized proofs. But I'm thinking of implementing it anyway. | 08:18 |
| andytoshi | how can you make miners require proofs? how do normal validators get these proofs? | 08:18 |
| bsm117532 | andytoshi: I want to make the simplest toy testnet I can. My code is all in python. | 08:18 |
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| bsm117532 | andytoshi: Each node would need to be connected to enough other nodes to cover the entire UTXO space, and would request proofs from its peers. tit-for-tat proof requests would ensure peers were cooperating and actually holding the parts of the UTXO set they claim to be. | 08:20 |
| andytoshi | oh...i am writing a self-contained C library designed to do nothing but consensus-critical things | 08:20 |
| andytoshi | i think there's almost no overlap between what we're doing :) | 08:20 |
| bsm117532 | andytoshi: Yes, that's why I think it may be interesting to include a Mimblewimble tx system in braids. ;-) | 08:21 |
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| bsm117532 | (with or without sharding...) | 08:25 |
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| andytoshi | so i'm rereading the braid slides from scaling bitcoin .. it says that multiple parents can have the same txes, as long as they don't conflict | 08:26 |
| andytoshi | but in MW each block only has one tx | 08:26 |
| andytoshi | so the parents will either be identical or they'll conflict | 08:26 |
| bsm117532 | As long as parents spend a disjoint subset of the UTXO set, it's fine no? | 08:28 |
| bsm117532 | I see your point though. It seems that aspect would need to be changed. | 08:28 |
| bsm117532 | MW has no way to tell a duplicate transaction from a double-spend, once they're aggregated the info is lost... | 08:29 |
| andytoshi | yes. so i think this works only if orphans are somehow disjoint from the blocks that orphan them | 08:30 |
| instagibbs | the small MW blocks would reduce the amount of mixing you get | 08:31 |
| bsm117532 | Two such blocks, in a braid, would be "compatible" and could be "siblings" (forming a diamond graph) | 08:31 |
| andytoshi | yes, i know how braids work, i just don't see how this would ever happen | 08:32 |
| bsm117532 | instagibbs: I think you mean the smaller/faster beads in a braid would reduce the amount of mixing? Yes it would. If you want a slow tx system it's easy to artificially slow down to achieve better privacy. | 08:32 |
| andytoshi | in absense of some sort of partition attack | 08:32 |
| instagibbs | bsm117532, or you could simply aggregate longer before releasing your transaction, but then mining orphans would go up naturally | 08:32 |
| bsm117532 | andytoshi: one major advantage is that braids can merge network partitions. Doesn't have to be an attack. | 08:32 |
| sipa | bsm1175321: unless anyone tries to exploit the partition to do a double spend | 08:33 |
| bsm117532 | Hmm I see I'm going to have to think harder about the double-spend case with MW... | 08:33 |
| sipa | then you two sides become irreconsilable | 08:33 |
| bsm117532 | sipa: yep | 08:33 |
| sipa | i don't think you're actually solving anything, in that case | 08:33 |
| bsm117532 | Well, poop. | 08:34 |
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| bsm117532 | This notion of allowing duplicate transactions comes from the idea that Bitcoin's p2p layer would be retained and used. A simpler toy testnet could have NO p2p layer. | 08:39 |
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| luny | any opinions on TumbleBit, is it the real deal? press: https://btcmanager.com/news/tech/tumblebit-promises-guaranteed-anonymity-for-bitcoin/ (contains link to whitepaper) | 11:29 |
| andytoshi | luny: this is e0's paper, it looks solid to me | 11:30 |
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| luny | thanks | 11:34 |
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| kanzure | "ultraslow radio for decentralized global digital communication" https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00303.html | 21:59 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> I realize that there's probably not much practical purpose for such a thing, but would it be possible to build a MimbleWimble chain that supports Namecoin-like operations as well as the standard MW currency ops? | 22:15 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> The 2 obvious challenges that jump out at me are (1) making a MW tx commit to the naming data, and (2) enforcing uniqueness and immutability of the "name" field of the name operations | 22:16 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> My initial guess is that it's not possible, but then again I never would have guessed that MW was possible to begin with | 22:17 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> So I dislike writing off something as impossible just because I can't imagine of a way it could be done | 22:18 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Expiration of names might also be a challenge, I guess | 22:19 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: some of that suffers from excessive handwave and dreaming without engineering expirence in the relevant area (something I'm often guilty of), very low bitrates at very low power suffer from decohearence. You can't accomulate 1000 seconds of CDMA data to decode your bit because the paths are not stable over those kinds of timeframes; in fact, unless all the communicating parties have pret | 22:19 |
| @gmaxwell | ty good atomic clocks, their _oscillators_ aren't stable enough over that kind of timeframe to usefully decode the signal. | 22:19 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> (of course, yes, I realize that it probably makes more sense to have Namecoin be a sidechain and MW be another sidechain, or something like that) | 22:20 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: context http://gnusha.org/logs/2016-08-31.log near 21:43 | 22:20 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: fwiw, people doing low power communications is a standard ham challenge, search string: QRP. And what you find is that the lower the power the more insane the hardware and DSP becomes, not simple 'steampunk' things like the writeup suggests. :) | 22:22 |
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| @gmaxwell | (for a comparison point, the highest cohearent integration time I've seen reported for GPS -- kind of a perfect case example, since the sats are straight up and the troposphere is slowly changing-- is two seconds, and except for one academic paper using an exotic ultrastable oscillator (a $10k part with a one year lead time) got 30 seconds, but I dunno if that was even reproducable. Typical integ | 22:33 |
| @gmaxwell | ration times for high end GPS hardware are more like 20-40ms) | 22:34 |
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| so | 18:19 < sipa> ultraprune is just the name of the database/storage design in bitcoin core since 0.8 | 23:12 |
| so | 18:20 < sipa> it's not a commitment scheme | 23:12 |
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| nsh | tl;dr on TumbleBit? | 23:47 |
| nsh | freenet for transactions i guess | 23:49 |
| nsh | -- | 23:50 |
| nsh | Description: TumbleBit is a new anonymous payments protocol that is fully compatible with today’s Bitcoin protocol. TumbleBit allows parties to make payments through an untrusted Tumbler. No-one, not even the Tumbler, can tell which payer paid which payee during a TumbleBit epoch. TumbleBit consists of two interleaved fair-exchange protocols that prevent theft of bitcoins by cheating users or a ma | 23:50 |
| nsh | licious Tumbler. TumbleBit combines fast cryptographic computations (performed off the blockchain) with standard bitcoin scripting functionalities (on the blockchain) that realize smart contracts. TumbleBit was used to mix 800 input addresses to 800 output addresses on Bitcoin's blockchain. | 23:50 |
| nsh | -- | 23:50 |
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| nsh | (fair exchange protocols are not without gotchas: http://www.internetsociety.org/sites/default/files/schmat.pdf ) | 23:52 |
| @gmaxwell | nsh: it's like a coinswap, but with the swapping parties not being able to connect their transactions. | 23:52 |
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| * nsh nods | 23:58 | |
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| --- Log closed Thu Sep 01 00:00:14 2016 | ||
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