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| jcorgan | https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871.pdf | 04:40 |
|---|---|---|
| jcorgan | Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies. A Rational Framework for Truly Decentralised Fast Transactions | 04:40 |
| jcorgan | only recently published but i wonder if there has been any discussion here or elsewhere on it | 04:41 |
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| jcorgan | it's basic concept is to apply cumulative PoW to chains of transactions, and to separate the PoW DAG from the currency transaction DAG | 04:43 |
| cjd | just read the abstract but my first reaction: 1. chained transactions were thought of before blocks but blocks were implemented because of valid reasons 2. those names I don't recognize from the bitcoin world so I'm concerned that possibly they're academics without a lot of knowledge about this specific technology | 04:43 |
| jcorgan | sure, i get that | 04:44 |
| jcorgan | but the paper seems rather well written inspite of that | 04:44 |
| * nsh frowns | 04:45 | |
| cjd | we've seen some really silly papers before -- specifically I recall one from Microsoft which "described a problem that doesn't exist and then solved it poorly" | 04:46 |
| jcorgan | my first takeaway is that it describes a steady state operation but not how a node would start from zero and get to that point | 04:47 |
| jcorgan | i need to re-read it in detail, but, time | 04:48 |
| cjd | the 2 super annoying problems in my mind are: #1 blockchains must be slow because it takes time before you are sure that the chain can't be rolled back, this is basically true of anything with proof of work because you have to wait for the work to happen. | 04:50 |
| cjd | #2 the cost of moving small amounts of money may be limited but the cost of moving enormous bank-size amounts of money (and being sure that it is not being double-spent) is enormous | 04:51 |
| cjd | say you're moving 10 trillion dollars, it's actually worth it to try to 51% attack bitcoin for that kind of money | 04:52 |
| nsh | 2. Works on an open model, empowering individuals. | 04:52 |
| * nsh is sold | 04:52 | |
| nsh | this is a terrible proposal. i'd love to see it implemented | 04:52 |
| nsh | i'm glad for a system to fail when one signature is able to move 10 trillion dollars | 04:52 |
| cjd | I think SWIFT does this pretty much daily | 04:52 |
| cjd | and Bitcoin is ar superior to SWIFT because you don't need friends of friends who have big credit lines with one another in order to transfer money | 04:53 |
| nsh | i don't think replicating terribly insecure centralised transfers is the best ambition | 04:53 |
| jcorgan | ok, well, hate to post PDFs and run, but first day of grcon16 awaits | 04:53 |
| nsh | enjoy! | 04:53 |
| cjd | if you want to wire a huge amount of money, there are actually liquidity problems at the forex level | 04:54 |
| nsh | there should be | 04:54 |
| nsh | there are flow-theoretical realities that we should recognise and not attempt to obviate | 04:55 |
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| cjd | FEDWIRE is able to move massive amounts of money because it is like bitcoin in that the Federal Reserve simply credits the difference to the appropriate account | 04:55 |
| nsh | (else the turbulent effects are merely externalised) | 04:55 |
| cjd | s/massive/arbitrary/ | 04:56 |
| cjd | SWIFT is merely a messaging system, you need to have banks with big enough credit relations that they can pick a route where there is enough liquidity to execute your transfer, similar to lightning network | 04:57 |
| cjd | it's fast but it's a pain | 04:57 |
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| kanzure | "Smarter signatures: Experiments in verifications" https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/final-documents/smarter-signatures.pdf | 15:05 |
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| neha | FNinTak: Spacemint was invented by Sunoo Park, who is a "she" not a "he" | 16:56 |
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| luke-jr | it occurs to me that we'd have essentially MAST already if we had gone with OP_EVAL.. | 17:49 |
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| amiller | hi neha | 18:58 |
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| FNinTak | neha: was referencing the author of the PoSpace paper I posted earlier, not the SpaceMint author | 19:18 |
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| katu | FNinTak: NaS (nothing at stake) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf | 19:38 |
| katu | with PoSpace it gets worse, because you dont need to hoard to long range attack the chain, all you need is to be 51% miner at any time to start long range attack until you catch up to the tip. | 19:40 |
| FNinTak | hoard? No ownership of currency required for a long range attack | 19:42 |
| FNinTak | I think you're referencing the problem gmaxwell brought up earlier, which is that b/c "hashrate" is not directly dependent on energy usage attacks are cheaper and development of specialized hardware more plausible | 19:44 |
| katu | yea, i probably mislabel long range here. anyhow, the point is that with PoS youre at least capped by capital | 19:44 |
| katu | but with pospace youre not | 19:44 |
| katu | yes | 19:44 |
| katu | thats all category of NaS | 19:44 |
| katu | costless simulation etc | 19:44 |
| FNinTak | Capped wrt. how long this attack could be? there is some non-trivial energy cost, based on energy consumption of memory/storage medium | 19:45 |
| FNinTak | though it is much lower than that of hashing, it is non-zero | 19:45 |
| katu | no, all pospaces have "fast proof", all you need is to be beefy miner *for a while* | 19:46 |
| katu | to outpace chain growth including history to the past youre starting at | 19:46 |
| katu | anyhow, that can be fixed by getting PoW oracle, which can possibly be external, though not really sure about that yet | 19:48 |
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| FNinTak | I don't see how that doesn't also apply to Bitcoin...yes mining is cheaper wrt. energy and this lowers the cost of attack, assuming you already have state-of-the-art hardware | 20:24 |
| katu | FNinTak: you can't grind in bitcoin. in bitcoin it takes a while to get a block. | 20:27 |
| katu | pospace and pos is instant. | 20:27 |
| katu | this is why you need oracle | 20:27 |
| katu | anyhow, read the nas paper | 20:27 |
| katu | (in pospace not really "instant" - youre capped by your disk bw, but is definitely not something you want to put bets on) | 20:29 |
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