| --- Log opened Sun Sep 18 00:00:00 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Sep 18 2016 | ||
| Taek | For DAGs to have similar security, you need the same property. For any block with N confirmations/decendents, you cannot give that block new ancestors without adding at least N new blocks | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | I thought my algorithm had that property, but it turns out it does not | 00:00 |
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| fluffypony | Taek: tx caps would create a mixin-level ceiling for Monero | 00:30 |
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| fluffypony | it would probably be feasible if we just locked it in to a particular mixin | 00:31 |
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| waxwing | Taek: 3-4 kB txs are not uncommon, I think i've seen 6kB + occasionally in JM. i guess it can work as long as size limit is big enough to allow 3 participants, consuming 2 inputs each, say ~ 1.2kB. would be just barely working then i guess. | 01:12 |
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| nsh | (hard problems are resolved by mitigating complexity, not adding it) | 04:08 |
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| kanzure | "Vulnerabilities introduced by migrating to 64-bit platforms" https://www.tu-braunschweig.de/Medien-DB/sec/pubs/2016-ccs.pdf | 07:18 |
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| waxwing | this uses pairing crypto apparently. disclaimer: i have no idea what it is :) http://milagro.incubator.apache.org/ | 12:53 |
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| nicolagreco | I have quite of a naive question: are utxo transactions and an op return transactions mutually exclusive? meaning that I cannot use op_return in a transaction (say A sends money to B and writes something in the op_code, this is not possible, right?) | 13:48 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> nicolagreco: in theory you could push data to the stack and then drop it again, which is equivalent to a NOP in the script | 13:50 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> You could also have a transaction with an OP_RETURN output and a second output that sends actual money to someone | 13:51 |
| nicolagreco | Jeremy_Rand: great, in other words, my question really is: is there a way to write extra data to a transaction (without burning money) | 13:52 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> nicolagreco: it will almost definitely cost extra money to insert data to a transaction, since it will make the tx larger. Also many miners may not like people using the blockchain to store data. | 13:53 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> (Well, same goes for many non-miners.) | 13:54 |
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| nicolagreco | Jeremy_Rand: the reason I am asking this question is because in a blockstack talk I heard that they had to burn 10k to do one particular operation (buying a tld) and I was like: "if we burn money this way, to store an op_return, we will slowly decrease the amount of bitcoin available" | 14:08 |
| nicolagreco | so I wonder if there are "healthier" operations, so having things costing extra money, as long as that money is recirculated is fine (if that money disappears -> gets burned, well, not really) | 14:09 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> nicolagreco: my understanding is that Blockstack's system is destroying coins as a method of introducing name scarcity, not specifically because it's needed in order to store the data. | 14:18 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> You could instead pay the coins as a fee to miners, but that changes incentives | 14:18 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Which could in some cases lead to incentives for miner misbehavior | 14:18 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> (The Namecoin devs have had this discussion quite a lot) | 14:18 |
| katu | the main problem i see is that you mix speculative currency with commodity | 14:20 |
| katu | ideally a commodity value should be that of commodity (real demand of names), not of speculative whims | 14:21 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> katu: agreed. If pegged sidechains had been a thing when Namecoin was created in 2011, I'm pretty sure NMC wouldn't be a currency. NMC having speculators has been a source of annoyance for everyone involved. | 14:22 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> That wouldn't solve every problem Namecoin has, but it would at least be an improvement I think | 14:23 |
| katu | well, the idea is to achieve peg to dollar somehow. provided thast demand for names is constant over time (short of somebody trying to corner commodity market), if bitcoin value against dollar doubles, the price of name in bitcoin should halve. not sure if blockstack does this. | 14:24 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> katu: I don't believe Blockstack does that. Bitshares's now-defunct naming chain tried to solve that, and the only solution they came up with was to have a static membership multiparty signature that dictated what the exchange rate was | 14:26 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Which isn't necessarily a horrible idea in principle, it's basically how Tor's dirauths work, but it was sufficiently centralized that Namecoin rejected that approach | 14:26 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> That said, Bitshares's naming chain had so many other severe problems that centralized price feeds was the least of the concerns | 14:28 |
| katu | my reasoning is that real commodity demand is the anchor to the valuation in usd. ie most customers are like "id should cost about 20usd a year". if it costs more, less ids is bought. a simple mechanism would be simply ratelimiting amount of ids registered, and then making going over that limit proportionally more expensive. of course the problem is getting constant demand in the first place. | 14:28 |
| katu | for example in DNS, demand for established tlds can be considered constant, but novel systems suffer from adoption curve | 14:29 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> katu: right, exactly. If we could expect the number of registrations in Namecoin's DNS namespace to be a similar function so, say, ICANN's .biz, it would be a lot simpler | 14:30 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> But since Namecoin's usability is expected to increase over time, it's really hard to predict what the curve will do | 14:30 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> s/so/to | 14:30 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> katu: something that's been floated as a potential name pricing system is PoS voting based on something like the median of votes | 14:39 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> in theory it's probably safe under the assumption that the people who have lots of NMC also want the name system to be successful | 14:40 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> whether that's a true assumption is questionable. Last I heard about 1/3 of all the NMC in existence are in the BTC-e cold wallet. | 14:41 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Also I kind of dislike that approach on the principle that it requires NMC to be a currency. | 14:41 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Not like I have any obviously better ideas | 14:42 |
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