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| andytoshi | possibly interesting to people here: http://bjarkiholm.com/publications/Holm_2005_partiii-essay.pdf | 11:06 |
|---|---|---|
| andytoshi | Taek: mimblewimble really wants CT, a max block size on the order of 10kb would be pretty nasty because the CT proofs are like 2Kb by themselves | 11:08 |
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| Taek | I had worried about as much | 11:09 |
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| andytoshi | i mean, you can do MW without CT, but that's a huge privacy hit | 11:11 |
| Taek | would capping to 8 outputs be too aggressive? Even then you're looking at 20kb for CT | 11:11 |
| andytoshi | well, adam thinks he has a way to make CT smaller (by ~20%), and i'd be willing to restrict the range of CT beyond what elements alpha allows to also get some more space | 11:12 |
| cjd | can you even prove that a particular transaction belongs to a particular block ? If you merge across blocks doesn't that become something invisible ? | 11:12 |
| andytoshi | cjd: you can, you show merkle paths for all inputs and all outputs | 11:13 |
| waxwing | andytoshi: has adam written it down anywhere? | 11:13 |
| cjd | bleh I want to chuck the blocks after they're mined so that the entire history of the chain is a black box | 11:13 |
| andytoshi | waxwing: i don't think so (though he did reference it on reddit once <.<) | 11:13 |
| sipa | with adam's optimization we can shrink the proofs by a factor of 1.32 | 11:14 |
| waxwing | yeah, i'm just curious, always wondered about that | 11:14 |
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| andytoshi | cjd: i have a way to compact-SPV a historic MW chain which is almost as good | 11:14 |
| waxwing | patent pending? :p | 11:14 |
| andytoshi | more like "comprehensible writeup pending" :P | 11:15 |
| andytoshi | i actually don't remember how it works or where to find my logs of it, only that i remember it sounded right.. | 11:15 |
| andytoshi | Taek: re capping to 8 outputs, i'd have to think about that. it creates an agressive incentive to reduce number of outputs, which i like | 11:16 |
| cjd | Oh I spoke to someone who had talked to an actual quantum physicist, what he told me is that as far as "post quantum" is concerned, when quantum computers come there is going to be an arms race and it's way too early in the game to start saying "post quantum" asymmetrical encryption | 11:16 |
| cjd | but that's more like 40 years out than 10 years out | 11:17 |
| kanzure | what is that in polylog internet years? | 11:17 |
| cjd | hehe | 11:18 |
| waxwing | quantum computers are the technology of the future and always will be | 11:18 |
| cjd | my friends are very clear at this point that it *is* coming | 11:18 |
| cjd | 5 years ago nobody knew if it could be done, now we know, the case is closed, but it is still very hard to make it scale | 11:19 |
| nsh | do all p-q asymmetric cryptosystems rely on some or other conjectured property? | 11:21 |
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| cjd | not exactly but what I am told is that quantum computation is really powerful and we really have no idea what we can do with this power | 11:22 |
| * nsh nods | 11:23 | |
| nsh | the problem space still requires some facilitating structure for speedups greater than quadratic | 11:23 |
| kanzure | see bottom 'quantum' sections of http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/dan-boneh/ | 11:23 |
| nsh | the problem is that we don't have much of an idea of what exactly constitutes the requirements of this structure | 11:23 |
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| kanzure | "On bitcoin security in the presence of broken crypto primitives" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/On%20Bitcoin%20security%20in%20the%20presence%20of%20broken%20crypto%20primitives%20-%202016.pdf | 11:29 |
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| cjd | meh processor spinning again | 11:32 |
| cjd | killall 'Google Chrome' | 11:32 |
| cjd | seems to fix it | 11:32 |
| cjd | yeah what they said in the meeting looks fairly accurate | 11:33 |
| cjd | if we're talking real life 40 years out then we also need to consider other things which might come before quantum computers | 11:33 |
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| kanzure | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/lattice-cryptography-library/ | 12:51 |
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| cjd | according to my friend, lattice is not a be-all-end-all, we really don't know the extent of what we can break with quantum | 12:55 |
| othe | djb has pretty much the same opinion about it | 12:58 |
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| nicolagreco | I could not find anything in the archive, was there any comment on the "Proofs of Proofs of Work with Sublinear Complexity" paper? | 14:18 |
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| Taek | e0: would it be possible to take something like TumbleBit to set up a long term passive tumbler? | 14:47 |
| Taek | Instead of mixing with 800 people over the course of a few seconds, what if I gave some coins to the tumbler, and then let them just sit in the 'TumbleBank' for a few weeks/months, passively growing my anonymity set as other people deposit into the tumbler, then one day I withdraw them? | 14:48 |
| Taek | The vast majority of my coins are idle for the vast majority of the time. JoinMarket can sort-of add privacy passively, but lots of large transactions are being created every time I mix | 14:49 |
| Taek | plus I have to be online for passive mixing with JM | 14:49 |
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| waxwing | Taek: why not just have a simple program that schedules joining a tumble session (that themselves are scheduled one per day or per hour or whatever)? "give to the tumblebank" sounds too much like reverting to old-fashioned centralized mixers, no? | 23:12 |
| waxwing | ("tumble session" i meant "tumblebit classic tumbler mode") | 23:12 |
| Taek | well, the nice thing about tumblebank is that it can't walk away with the money, and doesn't know who you are. So it's better than a traditional mixer in that worst case your tumble attempt fails. | 23:13 |
| waxwing | well yes i understood that you meant tumblebit, it seems a very workable model to me, i just think in what the paper describes as "classic tumbler mode" you could easily just join e.g. one tumble per day or whatever. | 23:14 |
| Taek | right but that adds transaction volume | 23:15 |
| waxwing | so the refund timeout is very long? (in your idea) | 23:17 |
| Taek | yeah it'd be weeks or more | 23:18 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Sep 20 00:00:59 2016 | ||
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