2016-09-21.log

--- Log opened Wed Sep 21 00:00:00 2016
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kanzure"Simulation-based evaluation of coin selection strategies" http://murch.one/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CoinSelection.pdf08:29
murchkanzure: Yes? :)08:29
sipamurch: kanzure is just quoting a link :)08:29
kanzuredon't mind me.08:29
murchOh, you also use this channel for archival of research?08:30
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sipaand spreading of knowledge08:30
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waxwingthat's pretty interesting, thanks kanzure murch08:47
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xinxiinstagibbs: here we are.10:17
bsm117532I'm confused by your question...why use a quantum-resistant key exchange algorithm to exchange keys for an algorithm that is itself not quantum resistant (e.g. relies on security of ECDLP)?10:17
instagibbsxinxi: CT is also broken under quantum attack10:17
instagibbsso, it's not really an added plus, even if we ignore "it's not in libsecp" :P10:17
xinxiIs it? commitment = xG + aH is not broken though.10:18
sipaxinxi: privacy-wise, no10:18
sipabut security wise it certainly is10:18
xinxiIf the privacy is kept, isn't it enough?10:19
bsm117532it relies on the elliptic curve discrete logarithm being hard though.10:19
sipano, you can arbitrarily print money10:19
sipafor a given commitment C you can't find the original amount and blinding factor10:20
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sipabut you easily find another amount and blinding favtor with the same commitment10:20
instagibbsinformation theoretically private, but not secure in the inflation sense10:20
instagibbsright?10:20
xinxiGot it.10:20
sipayup CT is information theoretically private, but only computationally secure10:21
xinxiWhy not use a quantum resistant homomorphic method?10:21
sipaCT is already painfully large as it is.10:21
sipaquantum reistant methods usually have huge keys and signatures10:22
xinxiOK. Did you check CCT?10:22
xinxiThat's much smaller than CT.10:23
bsm117532I had to look that up.  You mean this? http://voxelsoft.com/dev/cct.html10:25
xinxiYes10:25
instagibbs"Unfortunately, Andrew Poelstra was able to break the cryptosystem for this scheme's range-proofs." from Feb 2nd this year10:28
instagibbshttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.10010:28
xinxiAha, missed that.10:30
xinxiWhat're the ECDH public/private key sizes now used by Elements?10:31
sipasecp256k1 all the way10:34
xinxiThanks. That's indeed much smaller than post-quantum algorithms' keys.10:36
sipaCT range proofs are already 2.5 kB10:36
sipawe have an optimization to reduce it to around 1.810:37
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xinxiYeah, that's pretty big. Research on the range proof is quite active though. Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs got 152 citations.10:41
xinxiThere is still no break through?10:42
waxwingsipa: has anyone given much thought to smaller ranges? 32 bit amount range is quite huge. (if i remembered that right)10:42
sipawaxwing: well, logarithmic gain :)10:44
sipaone problem is that there is a propagation of informationn10:44
waxwingyes, well. point(s) taken.10:45
sipaif all inputs that indirectly consistitute an output ever used a small range, you know a lot10:45
waxwingi think the log scaling is the important point there, the other point is valid but you can argue both sides of it (some privacy is better than none).10:49
bsm117532.title https://www.iacr.org/archive/asiacrypt2008/53500238/53500238.pdf10:52
yoleauxbsm117532: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.10:52
bsm117532Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs10:52
bsm117532uses Boneh's signatures...10:54
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sipabsm117532: afaik, those are not more compact than CT10:58
sipathe range proof used in CT would be around 15000 bits for that range they demonstrate11:01
bsm117532for reference: \https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt11:06
bsm117532I see, you're already using the Borromean ring signatures...11:07
kanzurehttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085273.011:07
sipabsm117532: yes, borromean ring signature were invented for CT11:09
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nsh( http://phys.org/news/2016-09-non-probabilistic-quantum-theory-unpredictable-results.html )12:32
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CodeSharknsh: interpretation of quantum theory is a fun mental game - but in the end it always feels like we just sweep difficulties under a different rug :)17:42
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xinxisipa_: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.441.1089&rep=rep1&type=pdf18:29
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xinxithere is a constant range proof.18:30
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xinxiIt's always 18 group elements.18:31
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andytoshixinxi: that's broken, whoever runs `gencrs` can forge proofs18:36
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xinxiandytoshi: how difficult is that?18:48
andytoshixinxi: it's exactly as difficult as generating an honest proof, it looks like18:50
andytoshibut this is a -really- wordy construction, it might be easier or harder18:50
andytoshixinxi: this is "proven secure in the CRS model" .. the CRS model is a security model in which certain undetectable forgeries just don't count, for the purpose of the paper18:51
andytoshiacademics like this model because it's much easier to prove things in18:51
andytoshibut declaring that some forgeries don't count, doesn't change the fact that the scheme is broken18:51
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xinxiandytoshi: what's the security model used by current CT?19:00
xinxistandard model?19:00
andytoshixinxi: random oracle model19:00
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andytoshi"standard model" means no oracles (in particular, hash functions can't be treated as producing random values)19:02
andytoshisometimes you hear the "CRS model", which is some other model plus a backdoor algorithm and a security definition that excludes use of the backdoor ... many authors call this the "standard model" because technically a back door is not an oracle, and i guess they think it gives them some legitimacy to say "standard model"19:03
xinxiRandom oracle model assumes true randomness. Isn't it broken either?19:04
andytoshino, empiracally it appears that you can slot in "hash the current state of the system with SHA2 or something" in place of true randomness, and the security still holds19:05
xinxiYeah, but that's not true randomness.19:05
andytoshiin particular, if something was broken by this replacement, it'd somehow be exploiting the fact that a hash function is not really random ... but the structure that hash functions have is really different from the structure that the other parts of the algorithms have19:06
andytoshiand it appears that they don't ever interact (except in very contrived constructions designed to break in this way)19:06
xinxiYeah, it's pretty good randomness and difficult to break.19:06
andytoshiwell, we've had some 20+ years of random oracle schemes and no used system has ever been broken because of it19:06
xinxiI am wondering is CRS similar to that? Is there any CRS based algorithms broken because of the assumption of the security model?19:07
andytoshii mean, this is a bit of a dodgy thing to say. certainly hash functions are broken and then the schemes that use them are broken because of this19:07
andytoshixinxi: yes, when you replace a common reference string with something that's physically instantiated, then anyone in possession of its source can break the system, usually19:08
andytoshiso most CRS schemes are literally broken by definition when they are instantiated19:08
andytoshievery time19:08
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xinxiandytoshi: Can we change the method by using ECDH to exchange the common string?19:16
xinxiI feel the setting of the problem in the paper is a bit different from CT, where we can get a public key of the receiver.19:17
andytoshixinxi: the "receiver" of the proof is every person using the system now and in the future19:18
andytoshithe recipient of the transaction is nobody special, security wise19:18
andytoshibut you touch on a good point -- often the CRS assumption is actually OK, when there is one person verifying (and not proving), and then they can generate the CRS19:18
andytoshithis is how greg maxwell's "zero-knowledge contingent payment" scheme works, offchain people exchange solution to some puzzle (and prove that the solution exists using some CRS-based proof scheme)19:19
andytoshibut unfortunately for a blockchain this is not the case, the verifier set is open-ended19:22
rgrantis there a way for one of n multisig participants to update their address?19:24
rgrant(using MAST, advanced key techniques, or an OP that people have already proposed)19:25
xinxiandytoshi: OK. I know what you mean.19:26
andytoshirgrant: an address doesn't hit any blockchain structures until after somebody has sent money to it .. and at that point i think all the keys need to be committed to for the system to have sane semantics19:27
andytoshiso the answer is no, and no amount of crypto can get around it19:27
andytoshi(before anything hits the blockchain, they can just replace their address on whatever medium is being used to send it to would-be spenders, ofc)19:28
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rgrantif we know we want another address beforehand, we can put a branch into a MAST tx with the address (and even keep some secret piece of that branch in the meantime, to not grant the address any control now).  it would be nice to take this a step further.19:35
rgrantthe business case is key rotation or selling one's participation in a long-running multisig19:36
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rgrantit also seems that building the multisig out of MAST branch concatenation (using an opcode that reaches elsewhere in the MAST), rather than by concatenating at MAST-creation time, could allow one to specify a brnch with only one signature required, that then copies/recomputes the other subbranches, without knowing the other signatures.19:48
rgrantthis last part is a hunch.19:48
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rgrantahh, but either the TXOUT moves with one signature, or it requires the multisig.  i think i see the problem.19:56
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rgrantso this is a little clunky, but the solution might be an opcode that specifies which nodes of a MAST may be replaced when a certain key signs, and sends funds to a new UTXO with the recomputed MAST.  other keys used in the multisig would want to carefully review this replaceable-branch list, whereer the opcode occurs.20:09
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sipa_andytoshi: "empirically it appears"... just empirically? isn't that the basis for fiat-shamir?20:51
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