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| andytoshi | sipa: the basis for fiat-shamir is that you can change an interactive scheme into an RO one | 00:41 |
|---|---|---|
| andytoshi | that RO is secure in real life is an empirical matter | 00:41 |
| andytoshi | cf "random oracles are practical" | 00:41 |
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| nsh | (the transform itself provably secure given RO-assumption however) | 01:47 |
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| CryptoTraderClub | Looking for coin fundamental analysts. Can you make good calls on crypto coins ? | 02:08 |
| CryptoTraderClub | https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/53y24x/looking_for_coin_fundamental_analysts_can_you/ | 02:08 |
| fluffypony | CryptoTraderClub: no. | 02:09 |
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| nsh | (we don't discuss trading here) | 02:39 |
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| amiller | ok enjoy 5 more papers on cryptocurrency without mining: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/915.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/916 https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/917 https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/918 https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/919 | 06:32 |
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| kanzure | "Our comparison reveals that in any settings where distributed trust is possible (i.e., one is willing to trust any set of known participants), Bitcoin can collapse into CT and the need for both mining and the storage of the blockchain disappears." | 07:12 |
| sipa | CT? | 07:13 |
| kanzure | certificate transparency | 07:13 |
| sipa | ah | 07:13 |
| kanzure | sort of a weird way to go about getting that result ("hey trusted systems can be more trusty!") but w/e... | 07:14 |
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| wumpus | they're right, if you remove the aspect of trustlessness, there is no point in doing mining and verification of the entire blockchain | 07:28 |
| wumpus | but that's the catch isn't it... | 07:28 |
| sipa | well there are degrees | 07:30 |
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| sipa | if you have the ability to synchronize occasionally, you can distinguish between trust to not produce two versions of history, but not trust them not to authorize thefts | 07:31 |
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| Chris_Stewart_5 | Has anyone taken steps to implementing mimble wimble as a sidechain? | 07:38 |
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| JackH | Is there any reason to think that Bitcoin wont eventually be taken over in terms of usage by Ethereum (serious question) | 09:23 |
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| bsm117532 | Yes. Lots. I could go on and on and on. #bitcoin is probably better for that question. | 09:25 |
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| Taek | Chris_Stewart_5: probably too early for that, the theory behind it is still advacing pretty rapidly | 10:39 |
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| Chris_Stewart_5 | Taek: Seems like it would be a good testing ground. Any way just thought i'd ask if anyone is actively working on it in code | 10:51 |
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| bsm117532 | Anyone know where mimblewimble discussion is occurring? There's been precious little here since August. | 10:54 |
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| instagibbs | anything public is likely here | 10:59 |
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| Chris_Stewart_5 | Hopefully with segwit getting closer to deployment we can see things like that explored more | 11:12 |
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| sipa | i don't think segwit helps for mimblewimble :) | 11:15 |
| instagibbs | first, we don't hash the witness, next we throw away script! | 11:20 |
| Chris_Stewart_5 | sipa: but segwit does distract people like you from thinking/working on things like mimble wimble :-) | 11:21 |
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| sipa | Chris_Stewart_5: ha yes | 11:26 |
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| maaku | Chris_Stewart_5: yes, people are actively working on mimblewimble | 16:08 |
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| sipa | Chris_Stewart_5: i believe there will be a talk about it in milan | 16:17 |
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| xinxi | Hi guys, because of SegWit, confidential transactions' huge proofs will not be counted as the block size, right? | 19:29 |
| sipa | are you talking about bitcoin? | 19:32 |
| sipa | there is no straightforward way to include CT inside segwit as currently designed, as the CT range proofs are per output, not per input | 19:33 |
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| sipa | so it would likely need at least another extra optional data field in transactions (in addition to segwit's script witnesses), for which accounting rules can be chosen independently | 19:34 |
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| sipa | the only system with CT deployed is elements alpha, and though it indeed treats the CT range peoofs as witbess data, it doesn't do any discounting | 19:36 |
| sipa | *witness | 19:37 |
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| xinxi | Yeah, I am talking about Bitcoin. | 19:43 |
| xinxi | So SegWit shifts only input proofs into the witness segment? | 19:44 |
| xinxi | Is it possible to modify SegWit a bit to shift output proofs as well? | 19:44 |
| sipa | bitcoin doesn't have output proofs | 19:45 |
| sipa | there is nothing to move | 19:45 |
| xinxi | That's true. | 19:45 |
| sipa | if you're designing a new system, absolutely | 19:46 |
| xinxi | Can we create another transaction type to include output proofs? | 19:46 |
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| xinxi | I found this email very interesting. https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012194.html | 19:46 |
| xinxi | Is it possible? | 19:46 |
| sipa | yes, the same technique that segwit used to create an optional segment in transactions could be reused for the range proofs | 19:46 |
| sipa | but the discount argument doesn't apply | 19:47 |
| xinxi | Why? | 19:48 |
| sipa | for a new segment any accounting rule can be chosen | 19:48 |
| sipa | there is no reason why it should follow the same x0.25 as the script witnesses in segwit | 19:48 |
| xinxi | Got it. | 19:49 |
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| xinxi | So everything in the witness part now gets 75% discount when the size is calculated. | 19:50 |
| sipa | implicitly, you could say that there is an unlimited amount of optional segment space available in each transaction... but its cost is currebtly zero (and we also don't inspect it for validation) | 19:50 |
| xinxi | Now new segments can be discounted at other rates. | 19:50 |
| sipa | or not counted at all | 19:51 |
| sipa | or counted at a premium | 19:51 |
| sipa | or counted quadratically | 19:51 |
| sipa | or required to be a prime number in size | 19:51 |
| xinxi | That's a lot of fun. | 19:51 |
| sipa | just not negative | 19:51 |
| xinxi | How do you guys decide 0.25? | 19:51 |
| sipa | a balance between block propagation impact and utxo growth impact | 19:52 |
| sipa | the 0.25 factor was proposed because it makes inputs significantly cheaper (relative to outputs; from a factor 4 to a factor 2 approximately) | 19:53 |
| sipa | while not dramatically making blocks larger on the wire | 19:54 |
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| xinxi | Beside disk space, another other resource that the witness part will occupy? | 19:55 |
| sipa | cpu | 19:55 |
| sipa | it allows more signature checks per block | 19:55 |
| sipa | and bandwidth, it allows larger blocks | 19:55 |
| sipa | and disk i/o, as it allows more utxos per block to be spent and created | 19:56 |
| xinxi | These seem not big problems to most users. | 19:56 |
| sipa | cpu is pretty relevant | 19:56 |
| sipa | as deteemines how fast blocks can be relayed | 19:57 |
| xinxi | Really, I run a bitcoind on my server, it does not use much cpu. | 19:57 |
| sipa | it's only in spikes | 19:57 |
| xinxi | Got it. | 19:57 |
| sipa | bandwidth is partially mitigated using bip 152 | 19:58 |
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| xinxi | Nice. | 20:00 |
| xinxi | sipa: thank you for answering all these questions. I found you are particularly helpful :-D | 20:01 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> xinxi: seconded, both for sipa and all the other Blockstream people. Every time I talk to someone from Blockstream I walk away feeling smarter -- they're an excellent bunch | 20:05 |
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| xinxi | qpm: nice. | 20:06 |
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