--- Log opened Fri Mar 26 00:00:07 2021
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09:20 < bsm1175321> https://twitter.com/MartyBent/status/1375445535839162370
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09:22 < bsm1175321> @jungly want to set up a mailing list and Slack?
09:45 < belcher_> please no for slack
09:45 < belcher_> why would you want to use that centralized close-source commercial app for this open source project
09:46 < belcher_> ty for the podcast i will listen to it
09:46 < belcher_> for funding have you considered square crypto grants? (i am already funded by them for coinswap)
09:47 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher
10:27 < jungly> +1 to mailing list, will set one up later today
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11:07 < bsm1175321> I have considered Square crypto grants. There's a bit of tension between myself and Matt Corrallo (Stratum V2) on this topic though.
11:08 < bsm1175321> And anyway I wasn't in a position to do the work myself. But if anyone else here wants a grant to work on this, definitely apply to Square.
11:08 < bsm1175321> Glad to hear you got a grant though belcher_, CoinSwap is awesome!
11:09 < bsm1175321> BTW did you see the CommerceBlock/Mercury implementation of CoinSwaps for statechains?
11:09 < belcher> yeah its been nearly a year, i have code on github that can create coinswaps on testnet and regtest already
11:10 < belcher> yeah i saw, though IMO statechains arent that great so i didnt follow it much
11:10 < bsm1175321> jungly: one of my clients is using Mattermost instead of Slack. As this would be an open source project I don't really see a problem with using either... It might be a good way to draw interested parties into a conversation.
11:11 < belcher> stratum v2 seems orthogonal to p2pool unless im missing something? whats to stop a new version of p2pool using the stratumv2 protocol
11:11 < bsm1175321> Nothing. I think the two should work together.
11:13 < bsm1175321> The tension has more to do with the fact that I haven't actually been working on braidpool in some time.
11:14 < belcher> if anyone is writing a grant proposal make sure you write a section "how is this different from work on stratum v2"
11:14 < belcher> for mine i had a section "how is coinswap different from lightning / coinjoin / payjoin" because its a common question
11:15 < bsm1175321> Good point.
12:34 < jungly> "how is this different from work on stratum v2": I was thinking of a blog post for this to start of, so many people ask that as the first thing, largely cause the goals of both include the words 'decentralise bitcoin mining'
12:35 < jungly> bsm1175321: mattermost wins for me too.
12:41 < bsm1175321> I haven't studied Stratum V2 in enough detail, but a blog post like that would be valuable.
12:44 < jungly> I read through the posts and other material on slush' website
12:45 < jungly> The post will only have to compare the proposal we are discussing with what they have, purely on how they work differently, without making any material subjective conclusions. However, as I heard people say, "Stratumv2 is here and braidpool isn't"
12:49 < jungly> bsm1175321: Do you have braidpool.org?
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13:10 < bsm1175321> Yes, let's set up something at braidpool.org. Anyone here want to make a skeleton website?
13:11 -!- Olocrom [58a6bdc0@88.166.189.192] has joined #braidpool
13:12 < bsm1175321> Welcome Olocrom
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13:12 < bsm1175321> jungly Have you posted your draft proposals here? I think an initial mailing list post should include a list of existing resources, including the ones in the MOTD and the new ones from you.
13:15 < bsm1175321> jungly: linux foundation mailing list https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/create
13:15 < bsm1175321> braidpool-dev
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14:23 < bsm1175321> BTC <> sharecoin swaps need a DEX. Here's one idea: https://gist.github.com/jaybny/45f34c90bd1b28cbac9592fab504c454
14:40 < belcher> its been over a year so iv forgotten, but whats the point of sharecoins again? why not use the HTLC "lightning p2pool" construction instead?
14:42 < belcher> remember markets usually introduce a cost, liquidity must be paid for, that usually means paying some market maker middlemen
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14:59 < bsm1175321> I *want* to pay market maker middlement, because the structure of the thing being sold can be a future/option, and they're providing a risk management service to me.
15:00 < belcher> isnt the aim to decentralized bitcoin mining?
15:00 < bsm1175321> I may also be paying for instant payout via a swap or Lightning, and I'm paying for speed.
15:00 < bsm1175321> Yes, why would having a market in the middle contradict decentralization?
15:01 < bsm1175321> belcher: FYI jungly likes your proposal, we're going to look over it again...
15:02 < belcher> yeah we were talking in this channel a few days ago
15:02 < belcher> from the point of view of a hasher the fee they pay to market makers is just an extra cost to their mining operation, its as if the p2pool had a higher pool fee, and i dont see what value they get from that cost
15:03 < bsm1175321> Taproot deployment probably makes it a lot more practical, but I need to look over the details again...
15:03 < belcher> is the benefit that the hashers avoid that 100 block locktime thingy? thats still only less than a day
15:04 < bsm1175321> They get a hashrate derivative. They buy a contract that says "I'll get <X> btc for <Y> hashes 30/60/90 days from now". It locks in their profits and the middleman takes the hashrate risk.
15:04 < bsm1175321> The miner *knows* how many hashes he will produce, what he doesn't know is the global hashrate, and needs to hedge against it.
15:05 < belcher> couldnt you do this by having some kind of derivative product on an exchange? why does it have to be built into p2pool
15:06 < bsm1175321> Yes you could and no it doesn't.
15:06 < belcher> right ok
15:06 < bsm1175321> It's an argument to make a share-coin, but gluing a DEX on top is far more complicated, obviously. Maybe the right answer is to let centralized exchanges handle it and treat the share-coin as just another coin market.
15:07 < belcher> btw this article came out a few months ago https://bitcoinwords.github.io/mining-for-the-streets
15:07 < belcher> really worth a read, its about someone who mines as much as possible away from centralized chokepoints
15:07 < belcher> an obvious user of p2pool
15:08 < belcher> that kind of person would be the one mining all those censored transactions if erik voskuil's attack comes to pass
15:08 < bsm1175321> awesome
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15:08 < bsm1175321> FWIW, my DAG/braid contributions can increase the block rate by roughly 1000x, but this isn't enough for individual miners like this. You'd need a 1000000x improvement.
15:09 < bsm1175321> https://twitter.com/BobMcElrath/status/1375472809338634244
15:09 < belcher> 1000x is still pretty good, getting there haha
15:09 < bsm1175321> Hopefully it will not come to pass. But even if it does, let's make it not matter...
15:10 < bsm1175321> hahahaaa yeah I'll take a 1000x improvement, and have 1000 tiny centralized pools for individual miners.
15:11 < belcher> regarding your tweet, presumably the state will set up their censorship rules that criminals are allowed to transact to regulated service providers but not allowed to, for example, create a coinjoin
15:12 < bsm1175321> Yeah good luck with that.
15:12 < bsm1175321> But I guess you have a point..."deep packet inspection" of transaction structure is another possible censorship avenue.
15:14 < belcher> some KYC exchanges are already blocking coinjoins https://6102bitcoin.com/coinjoin-flagging/ this is a relatively recent development of the last few months
15:14 < bsm1175321> I saw that. :facepalm:
15:15 < bsm1175321> I lobbied hard against this at former employers. Using coinjoin is not evidence of crime, and from a law enforcement perspective it's better to have such coins on your platform so they can tell you to seize them.
15:16 < bsm1175321> OTOH if everyone jumps on board with blocking coinjoins, this will just accelerate the bifurcation of finance away from the fiat-industrial-complex.
15:16 < bsm1175321> I'm happy either way, frankly.
15:17 < bsm1175321> And I want to see CoinSwaps accelerate, which can't be as easily identified as coinjoins. ;-)
15:17 < belcher> yep
15:18 < belcher> if not for that, then using bitcoin is a bit like sending out your entire internet history to all the websites you visit
15:19 < belcher> arguably not compatible with existing privacy legislation
15:22 < bsm1175321> yep yep
15:22 < bsm1175321> You should talk to the Mercury guys...
15:23 < bsm1175321> Statechain or no, the underlying coinswap is the same and it might be useful to compare notes
15:23 < bsm1175321> LMK if you want me to set that up
15:24 < belcher> ty
16:40 < jungly> What if we could have payouts using payments channels AND let miners still buy a future saying I'll deliver <X> hashes for <Y> btc in <N> days.
16:40 < jungly> This is in reference to using the Single Use Seals. IDK if such a double win makes any economic sense at all, but it is doable. https://gist.github.com/kulpreet/19927c7188a4224ce2de43efb3c69370
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17:39 < ichigox> hi alL!
17:40 < ichigox> does braidpool have a github repo or example implementation to look at?
17:40 < ichigox> just saw the talk from MCC 2019. very interesting idea :)
17:40 < belcher> ichigox no github or any code afaik, its still at the design stage
17:40 < ichigox> ah i see.
17:41 < ichigox> love the way Bob mcelrath thinks about hashrate
17:46 < ichigox> are there any design docs avl? interested in learning more about how funds are stored / unlocked when exchanged for TH tokens
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 27 00:00:08 2021