--- Log opened Fri Oct 25 00:00:45 2019
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02:00 < m-schmoock> darosior: the error occurs to me after doing several 100% drains on various channel after another (one drain filling up another channel that you can then drain, and so on)... after like ~10 100% drains the lightningd will complain that he is unable to find routes
02:01 < m-schmoock> also note my explanation how to use the plugin... i updated the documentation a bit.   drain 30% should result in 70% filled channel so can only be done if channel is above 70%.
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02:03 < m-schmoock> we could imagine merging drain and fill together and to auto conversion, so that the percentage effectively becomes the target capacity. Then a drain 0% will empty a channel and a drain 100% will fill it up. currently a drain removes liquidity and fill increases it and the percentages are target values only if channel is above or below target.
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02:33 < darosior> m-schmoock: ping
02:36 < m-schmoock> sry, now I need to go for lunch with my collegue. lets talk later. I updated the PR with a comment about how to refactor the commands...
02:36 < darosior> Ok
02:37 < darosior> I'm still tinkering with it
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02:56 < darosior> m-schmoock: Ok now I think I have a clear explanation of why I think the wording is misleading https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/pull/22#issuecomment-546286947
02:56 < darosior> Trying to get the routing error now
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04:01 < darosior> m-schmoock: Is the route error related to an erring channel ? I experienced a routing error with an erring channel which is actually usable
04:05 < darosior> Oh I think I found a connection issue between 2 C-lightning peers, one can't read the header sent by the other one
05:04 < m-schmoock> darosior: do you get the routing error now?
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05:26 < darosior> I could not get them with a sufficiently well balanced regtest
05:27 < m-schmoock> I reproduce this on testnet
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05:29 < darosior> hmm do you get them only with 100% drain /fill ?
05:31 < m-schmoock> i get them faster
05:32 < m-schmoock> I dislike "set_ours" and "set_them" commands, they are not easy to remember
05:32 < m-schmoock> do you know a better word for the "reach" command I described? 
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05:38 < darosior> "> i get them faster" ==> Even with, say 90% ? If that's the case then I can not reproduce on regtest : I tested to drain and fill a channel back and forth dozens of time, all went good
05:41 < m-schmoock> i only reproduced on testnet
05:41 < m-schmoock> I think once they happen it does not matter if 90 or 100% or some other percentage
05:42 < m-schmoock> at a certain point the routing engine refuses to find a path when chhannels have been drained and filled several time
05:42 < darosior> "> I dislike "set_ours" and "set_them" commands, they are not easy to remember" ==> I don't mind by which term replacing it but I think the actual name is misleading with what the command actually does. But it's not __that__ important
05:43 < m-schmoock> do you expect a fill 10% to fill the channel by 10% or remaining incoming capacity or total capacity??
05:43 < m-schmoock> same for drain
05:43 < m-schmoock> and what would the purpose for this kind of operation be?
05:44 < m-schmoock> hm. what if we drop all the command and just do a "balance x%" which does exactly that. if you use 10% it will make the balance 10% yours
05:45 < darosior> I would expect "fill 10" to fill 10% of incoming liquidity and "drain 10" to drain 10% of incoming liquidity...
05:45 < darosior> Or outgoing
05:46 < m-schmoock> 1. raise error when not possible? 2. whats the purpose for such an operation?
05:46 < darosior> Anyway I dont care that much about the wording, and a misuse on LN just cost some msats i.e. 0 costs
05:47 < m-schmoock> im not happy with all options
05:47 < darosior> ". whats the purpose for such an operation?" ==> of what operation ? Draining a channel capacity ??
05:48 < m-schmoock> darosior: pm
05:48 < darosior> "> im not happy with all options" ==> then just stick with this as it is now : i don't make request just propositions
05:48 < m-schmoock> yes, but im not happy with the current either :D
05:49 < m-schmoock> drain <<50% is totally counter intuitive
05:49 < m-schmoock> whereas drain 100% is totally intuitive
05:49 < m-schmoock> you see what I mean??
05:50 < darosior> Yep
05:51 < darosior> but about the routing
05:51 < darosior> Have you tried with tiny channels ?
05:52 < darosior> I mean, are you sure it's not a capacity problem from intermediate nodes ?
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05:55 < darosior> Hmm finally I disagree with drain [n>50]% is intuitive, see the first example in https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/pull/22#issuecomment-546286947
05:59 < m-schmoock> yes I read this. so you interpret the "drain" operation relating to the remaining capacity, not the total. thats basically why we talk about different things here
05:59 < m-schmoock> I dont see a usecase in draining 10% of remaining capacity. the most usecases will be either drain all, fill all, or balance
06:00 < m-schmoock> and you cant get a 50% balance when using remaining capacity as reference without having the user to do the math
06:00 < m-schmoock> thats basically why I miplemented it this way
06:00 < darosior> In the example I'm not talking about draining 10% but 90%
06:01 < m-schmoock> yes
06:01 < m-schmoock> just an example
06:01 < darosior> And I see a big use case in filling 10% or whatever_small%
06:01 < m-schmoock> I dont see a need in draining x% of remaining capacity
06:01 < m-schmoock> (even though the wrding is more intuitive)
06:01 < darosior> JIT routing, you fill as needed
06:01 < darosior> draining I dont see either
06:02 < darosior> But filling is basically the same
06:02 < m-schmoock> hm. okay so potentially we have 5 commands:  drain/fill regards to remaining capacity. drain/fill with regards to total. and set_ours/reach command to set capacity to target value
06:03 < m-schmoock> since the second (regards to toal) are counter intuitive we should go for 1 + 3  (so three commands) we just need a good name for set_ours or reach
06:04 < darosior> I think regard to total is the most intuitivd
06:04 < m-schmoock> but thats what I have implemented, or not?
06:04 < darosior> I think the set_[ours/theirs] is the more explicit
06:04 < darosior> I dont think so
06:04 < m-schmoock> :D we need a call. chatting this sux
06:04 < darosior> yep
06:04 < darosior> Calling you asap
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06:46 < willcl_ark> Nice plugin!
06:46 < willcl_ark> Personally, I would expect "drain" to completely send *all* funds, 0% local balance. "Fill" being the inverse woudl try to reach 100% local balance. Consequently something like "set_remote 60(%)" would set 60% of total channel capacity to remote side, and "set_local 25(%)" would set 25% of total channel capacity to local side.
06:48 < willcl_ark> fill and drain, whilst having an almost identical meaning, would not be the native English way of describing the current plugin actions, IMO
06:51 < m-schmoock> willcl_ark: the devil is in the detail :D    I will rewrite this to ahve three commands: drain x% (from total, not ours)   fill x% (to total, not theirs)   and something like   balance/reach/set_ours x%   (does all the magic, regardless direction and current balance)
06:52 < m-schmoock> and if you are already low (i.e. 20%) and you do a drain 50% will set target to 0% silently and drain to all thats possible
06:52 < m-schmoock> its a tradeoff between UX and intuition, we had some discussions on this as you can see
06:53 < m-schmoock> willcl_ark: do you know a good name for the third comman (set_ours/set_local/reach/stuff/balance)?
06:53 < m-schmoock> lets call it "schmoock x%"    :D
06:53 < darosior> I like "stuff"
06:54 < m-schmoock> stuff would be okay, besides that fact that this word is also used for anything else where a word was missing :D
06:57 < darosior> Beside set_ours this can also be set_outcoming, but I think you dont like it either ? ^^
07:03 < m-schmoock> nope, both are no good :D I go for "stuff" or "schmoock" until someone comes up with a better name
07:08 < m-schmoock> I just reactivated my testnet machine. turns out I get a fatal crash (also with deleted gossip) on current master:
07:08 < m-schmoock> 0x55f0100dccdb bitcoin_tx_output_get_script bitcoin/tx.c:202
07:08 < m-schmoock> 0x55f010083485 topo_add_utxos lightningd/chaintopology.c:658
07:08 < m-schmoock> is this known?
07:08 < m-schmoock> 0x55f010083616 add_tip lightningd/chaintopology.c:679
07:08 < m-schmoock> 0x55f010083a97 have_new_block lightningd/chaintopology.c:759
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07:25 < m-schmoock> after clean reabuild it works... false alert
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13:12 <@niftynei> rusty one more thing for 0.7.3 https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/3080
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 26 00:00:45 2019