--- Log opened Wed May 12 00:00:52 2021
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01:27 < shafire> Hello
01:38 < shafire> cdecker: Could you also delete or rename the tag "v" @elementsproject/lightningd in docker hub
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05:38 <@cdecker> Yep
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05:42 <@cdecker> `v` tag deleted, v0.10.0 building now ^^
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05:47 <@cdecker> Docker images updated, sorry for the delay
05:47 < shafire> thanks
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06:50 < sword_smith> I am trying to connect to this node, but getting an error that says the protocol is not supported: https://1ml.com/node/0308223e69558e4030efe9d0df9583d340b681381ae7f0a3fcbd07c3bc49da62c0
06:52 < sword_smith> code: 401, "message": "55ylpek3yuzi7tnzwdw3ebgve3wtlmadsi6kybsq5r2l4wh6cbsax3yd.onion:9735: opening -1 socket gave Protocol not supported. 55ylpek3yuzi7tnzwdw3ebgve3wtlmadsi6kybsq5r2l4wh6cbsax3yd.onion:9735: opening -1 socket gave Protocol not supported. "
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07:12 < vincenzopalazzo> sword_smith or your node is not connected with Tor, or the node https://1ml.com/node/0308223e69558e4030efe9d0df9583d340b681381ae7f0a3fcbd07c3bc49da62c0 is not configure to receive connection from outside. I don't know any other reason
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07:32 < sword_smith> vincenzopalazzo: Thanks.
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08:04 < shafire> hi
08:04 < shafire> sword_smith: did you get already an answer?
08:05 < shafire> it's the TOR protocol, so you need to have TOR configured, if you want to connect to this node over TOR
08:35 < sword_smith> shafire: thanks. I thought I could connect to a TOR node without configuration.
08:35 < sword_smith> thought it was handled automagically ^^
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10:15 < az0re> It's really unfortunate how broken LN is
10:15 < az0re> I wish it actually worked
10:16 < az0re> Maybe in a few more years y'all will have worked out the show-stopper bugs
10:17 < az0re> But I can confidently say after all this time trying to make it work: LN is not ready for real use
10:17 < az0re> That fact and the recent explosion in nodes and channels is not a good combination
10:17 < az0re> I think this will not end well
10:18 < az0re> <az0re> Maybe in a few more years y'all will have worked out the show-stopper bugs
10:19 < az0re> But frankly I doubt it; you'll probably have added lots more whiz-bang features but I bet all the channel state machine bugs remain unfixed
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10:46 < rubikputer> az0re: what are you talking about
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13:12 < az0re> rubikputer: There are lots of bugs in C-Lightning and LND that together make LN useless
13:12 < az0re> I've lost count of how many channels have died on me from bugs
13:13 < az0re> It's fine to earn only a few sats, but only if you don't reliably lose 10x that from bugs
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13:40 < fiatjaf> az0re: I understand you're frustrated with bugs and channels closed, and I have had many dozens of them too, for the most absurd reasons
13:40 < fiatjaf> some of my fault, some c-lightning's fault, some issues with the lightning protocol
13:42 < fiatjaf> but maybe try to remain less obnoxious
13:43 < fiatjaf> twitter is a better place for being rude and toxic
13:46 < az0re> fiatjaf: I don't really care if you feel I'm obnoxious and rude
13:46 < az0re> You guys should care, though, that the software is so broken
13:46 < az0re> If it takes being obnoxious and rude to light a fire under everyone's collective asses, then so be it
13:49 < az0re> My position is pretty clear: The bugs (C-Lightning, LND, protocol, whatever) are a killer problem for LN. As in, they kill the idea and make it useless. But while many devs (like you, fiatjaf) acknowledge this, they spend their effort on nice-to-have features like dual funding.
13:50 < az0re> That's a problem and doesn't bode well for LN in my opinion.
13:51 < rubikputer> az0re: it can okay to be obnoxious when you're correct, but it seems to be that the majority of LN users don't have the catastrophic issues that you seem to be having having, which suggests to me that it may be user error on your part
13:52 < az0re> I wish it were just me
13:52 < az0re> It's not
13:52 < az0re> Ask jiatjaf or rusty
13:52 < rubikputer> I'm not denying that there exists bugs that impact users
13:52 < az0re> I think I am exposing them more frequently because I am using it a bit harder than most users
13:53 < rubikputer> but all software has bugs that impacts users
13:53 < az0re> Sure
13:54 < az0re> But if every week or two bitcoin-core subtracted 10,000 - 50,000 satoshis from my wallet and made it harder to send and receive funds, Bitcoin would never have reached its current position in the market
13:54 < az0re> Bugs happen, sure
13:54 < az0re> But the LN protocol or the incompatible implementations have *a lot* of bugs that all cost the user money
13:55 < az0re> Sorry, that each cost the user about as much money than they can realistically hope to earn in an entire year across all their channels
13:55 < rubikputer> I'm blown away that you're having issues like that
13:56 < rubikputer> not once have I ran into an issue where funds actually disappeared from my channels
13:56 < az0re> How many HTLC forwards do you do per day?
13:56 < az0re> Do you run over Tor?
13:56 < rubikputer> it varies but maybe a dozen and yes
13:56 < rubikputer> a dozen isn't a lot, I know
13:57 < az0re> I've got scripts that constantly push HTLCs to manage liquidity; many bugs seem to be triggered by those HTLCs (and network conditions or whatever)
13:58 < rubikputer> have you tried keeping your channels balanced less tightly?
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14:03 < az0re> To be clear, my channels are not balanced--my script will stop pushing HTLCs when that happens, but payment forwards constantly unbalance them
14:04 < az0re> Balancing these channels is how I earn sats; I provide liquidity on high-demand channels for a small markup
14:04 < az0re> And it's not really a solution: "Just don't make any payments through this supposedly-trustless payment network!" lol
14:05 < rubikputer> what is the distribution of the capacity of your channels?  if your channels are constantly being unbalanced then it's likely they're too small
14:05 < az0re> No, unfortunately that's not the problem
14:06 < az0re> My liquidity constraints come from limited incoming liquidity on certain channels
14:06 < az0re> I can make them 1BTC if I want but it won't make a bit of difference: any incoming liquidity they get is very quickly used up
14:07 < az0re> I did actually close and re-fund channels with those nodes, hoping I could bank up more incoming liquidity
14:07 < az0re> But that hasn't worked, and I basically just wasted sats I could have pledged into other channels
14:07 < rubikputer> 1 BTC channels and they're getting unbalanced that fast?
14:07 < az0re> nonono
14:08 < az0re> I *could* make them 1BTC but it wouldn't make any difference
14:08 < az0re> Incoming payment forwards on those channels exhaust my incoming liquidity faster than my script can fix it
14:09 < rubikputer> that seems very unusual
14:09 < az0re> s/very unusual/like a market opportunity/
14:09 < az0re> yes
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--- Log closed Thu May 13 00:00:53 2021