--- Day changed Wed Jun 15 2016
00:05 < JacobApplbaum> gmaxwell no you are correct, I miscounted 
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04:47 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] AdamISZ opened pull request #574: modify wallet sync to account for requested but unused addresses, add… (develop...walletsyncfix) https://git.io/voBtF
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05:01 < waxwing> coverage turned sickly orange, yay. now i'll just pretend that actually means something :)
05:21 < waxwing> raedah2: can we close 572? it must have been an old version, right?
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05:41 < waxwing> AlexCato and anyone else interested, my bot is now on irc.rizon.net as well as freenode and cgan. rizon seems to have hostmask, i haven't looked into Tor yet. it was one of the ones belcher_ recommended.
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06:33 < JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] hi, is it correct to assume that running a yield generator for, say, a week, provides the same privacy as tumbling? blockchain.info's taint anaylsis shows a completely severed link between the source address for few addresses i've checked
06:39 < waxwing> difficult to generalize. if you don't mind what amounts and you have patience to wait weeks/months then one could expect very substantial privacy gains over a long period. you do however have to assume that the takers are not conspiring, because the takers know the linkages in individual transactions.
06:40 < waxwing> as for bc.i taint analysis, i don't know the algo, no idea what it really means. i'd expect "taint" to be ultra-small eventually but not zero? No idea tbh.
06:44 < pigeons> at least in the past, bc.i's taint analysis was just as horribly misleading and broken and wrong and dangerous as everything else they do
06:52 < belcher_> low taint according to bc.i is a necessary but not sufficent condition for privacy
06:53 < belcher_> but yes i think running a yg and having plenty of transactions gives you pretty good privacy
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06:54 < belcher_> for most uses anyway, on the other hand nobody really knows
06:54 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] i mostly care about passive blockchain analysis
06:55 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] i guess you'd miss the same-size inputs you get with tumbler/sendpayment
06:55 < belcher_> there are no same-size inputs in joinmarket
06:56 < belcher_> the makers get privacy from coinjoins just the same as the takers(tumbler/sendpayment)
06:56 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] sorry, i'm not using the term right, i mean the screenshot from https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg15212016#msg15212016
06:56 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] same-size outputs
06:56 < belcher_> takers know all the mappings, but since they're paying for the service the hope is that they wont ruin their own privacy
06:56 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] for yield generator i'd get change coming back to my addresses, right? but it's still pretty random
06:57 < belcher_> sendpayment and tumbler also get change coming back to them
06:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] ah, then it's similar enough
06:57 < belcher_> yieldgen is strong against taint analysis, amount correlation and timing correlation, so i think its great against passive blockchain analysis
06:58 < belcher_> the attacks against joinmarket all involve disturbing it in some way (sending fake !fill messages, owning lots of coins and being many makers) and joinmarket still provides privacy against passive observers of the blockchain even if those attacks happen
06:59 < belcher_> im afk now, bbl
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07:56 < belcher_> you know how we believed the #152 spy had stopped? what if they only recoded their bot to do it slowly and less obviously ?
07:57 < OverlordQ> they're still around
07:57 < OverlordQ> or at least somebody similar
07:58 < belcher_> i believed they stopped because annoucing an order doesnt immediately make them fill it
07:58 < belcher_> how do you know they're still around
07:58 < OverlordQ> because they're exhibiting the same behavior
07:59 < OverlordQ> not to mention throwing an error doesn't make them leave, they try to re-fill the exact same amount again
07:59 < belcher_> how do you make them !fill you ?
08:00 < OverlordQ> Dunno, I've noticed they either do an !orderbook or it's right after the maker joins the chan
08:01 < belcher_> how do you know that the !orderbook is malicious?
08:01 < belcher_> the malicious thing is doing the !fill
08:01 < OverlordQ> because they never complete
08:01 < OverlordQ> any txn ever
08:01 < belcher_> how often does it happen ?
08:01 < belcher_> im trying to find out exactly which bot it is
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08:36 < belcher_> oh yeah the spy is still around :|
08:56 < waxwing> relevant to a discussion we were having a while back: https://github.com/DanielWeigl/bips/blob/master/bip-p2sh-accounts.mediawiki
09:01 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] Cekamuduz attempted this about 20 minutes ago, nothing past !ioauth
09:01 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] #152 spying i mean
09:01 < waxwing> 156 :)
09:01 < waxwing> ioauth is all they need if it is indeed snooping
09:02 <+JM-IRCRelay> [lorem] #156, right
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11:54 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] dan-da opened pull request #575: adds --show-xpub option to display wallet xpub and for each mix level. (master...xpub_pull_request) https://git.io/voRsA
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12:47 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] the current tx fees with the default joinmarket.cfg setting might cause quite a few "insufficient funds" and other hard-to-figure-out problems, esp. for coinjoiners only joining small amounts. I should possibly check if some error messages can be made more clear, so that people can easily figure out whats wrong
12:48 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] e.g. "Insufficient funds. Availabe = X, cjfee = y, tx fee = z, missing amount = []"
12:49 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] "or reconfigure your confirmation target rate in joinmarket.cfg to save on fees" or something like that
12:50 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] i'm seeing a lot less activity on the JM-pit today, but this might just be a coincidence
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13:31 < OverlordQ> welp, seems to have disappeared again for me
13:35 < mec> It's not a coincidence that JM-pit activity is lower, default tx fees in joinmarket are low enough that JM transactions take 2-6 hours to confirm today.
13:36 < gmaxwell> does JM not do fee estimation?
13:36 < Anduck> doesn't
13:36 < Anduck> what happened to joinmarket.info?
13:36 < Anduck> ah, moved to .me
13:45 < mec> JM *does* do fee estimation.
13:45 < mec> it defaults to 3 block target IIRC
13:49 < mec> fee estimation lag maybe, 30 sat/byte lag was enough perhaps 5 hours ago but is not enough now, and transactions remain unconfirmed
13:50 < mec> gmaxwell, are txns not getting stuck unconfirmed with core also?
13:55 < gmaxwell> nope.
14:01 < mec> that's strange, I thought JM used bitcoind's estimatefee to get the fee
14:11 < gmaxwell> thats why I asked about fee estimation.
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14:27 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] [gmaxwell] does JM not do fee estimation? <-- yes it does.
14:28 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] with JM creating a several times bigger TX than normal transactions though, tx fees for JM are pretty damn expensive right now
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14:57 < Anduck> bah. my info is outdated , then
15:18 < mec> gmaxwell, pretty sure JM uses bitcoin-cli estimatefee 3 by default.
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16:05 < raedah2> mec: gmaxwell: it can also be set in the joinmarket.cfg with tx_fees = 3
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21:38 < kybl> ~kurz
21:40 < kybl> prostě cena 727 $ :-)
22:23 < kybl> sorry, bad channel :-)
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