--- Day changed Sun Jun 26 2016
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05:01 < belcher> #156 is still happening
05:34 < belcher> ping waxwing 
05:35 < waxwing> hi
05:36 < waxwing> belcher: ?
05:36 < belcher> i think ill post that message i wrote about 156 happening 
05:36 < belcher> i got a pm today from someone saying they noticed it still happening, and i saw it on thursday on my bot
05:37 < belcher> thoughts?
05:37 < waxwing> sure; post a message?
05:37 < belcher> this one https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/00255ecfe1bc4984fcf7c65e25aa8b4b
05:38 < belcher> on the subreddit, twitter, bitcointalk thread and so on
05:38 < waxwing> yeah, sure
05:38 < belcher> sad day, but at least it can be improved
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09:31 < fluffypony> belcher: finding stuff that needs improving isn't sad, it means you come out with a better tool on the other side
09:31 < fluffypony> and I, for one, want my tool to be the very best
09:31 < fluffypony> :-P
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12:01 < vaske_89> he
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21:14 < MattRK> I just ran some coins through the JoinMarket tumbler and after all was said and done i'm missing 16% of my coins. I"m assuming that 16% is for fees? 
21:14 < MattRK> How can this possibly be? 
21:15 < MattRK> People complain all over the internet about tumbler fee's being 1% or 2%. 
21:16 < MattRK> I must have done something wrong. 
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21:30 < pigeons> yeah that's so high as to be unlikely
21:31 < pigeons> check the logs for one thing. also maybe some are still unconfirmed? also run wallet-tool again a few times
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21:41 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] 16% fees is a possbililty if the amount tumbled was rather small, so that the miner fees might eat a good chunk of it. Did you tumble  less than 0.3 btc or so, by chance?
21:42 < MattRK> Yeah, i tumbled .1113
21:42 < MattRK> I'm checked and i don't see any unconfirmed transactions but i'm doing a rescan now just to make sure
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21:44 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yeah... well, depending on your settings (number of makers, fee configuration, etc.) each tumbling step probably costs between 0.0005 - 0.002 in fees
21:45 < MattRK> All settings were defaults. No extra switches or anything
21:47 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] so that would be be 4-6 makers and target confirmation block of 3. That means at least 8 inputs and 8 outputs at each tumbling step, so this is probably at around to 0.001 in fees at each tumbling step. I fear that 16% fees could indeed be reached in that case
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21:50 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] if time is not an issue, i'd recommend setting the tx_fees parameter in the joinmarket.cfg to 25 next time; under normal circumstances, each transaction will still be confirmed within 30 minutes (would have done so the last 2 days), but could take hours if the bitcoin network is congested. But this usually will decrease miner fees at least by half
21:50 <+JM-IRCRelay> usually
21:52 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] if other services do this for 1-2%, at least in costs joinmarket cannot compete for small tumbling amounts. But since miner fees are static, it will be cheaper than those other services very fast, once the tumbling amount is >0.5 btc or so
21:53 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] and there's one more pro: joinmarket cant run with the funds, while centralized services could just not pay out in theory
21:54 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] anyways, sorry that it cost so much for you :(
21:54 < MattRK> Ah
21:55 < MattRK> That makes sense i suppose. My thought process was to test this new thing with a small amount before dumping everything into it
21:55 < MattRK> Do the logs show each transaction and exactly how much in fees i paid?
21:55 < MattRK> The log is enormous and there's a lot of info in there
21:56 < MattRK> Also, i feel like the FAQ on the site should include some kind of warning to new users to let them know that tumbling <.3 or .4 btc is not recommended. 
22:02 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] well, the number changes quickly. 2 months ago, miner fees were like 1/4th of what they are now, so 0.3 would have not been a problem then. But you're right, there should be some info in there
22:05 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] not sure about the log, i've not used tumbler myself yet. Maybe you can find the initiation of one of your tumbling steps and see if there's any mention. I"d look for the work "estimate", there should be some fee estimation near it
22:07 < MattRK> okay, thanks. Looking now. 
22:10 < OverlordQ> ugh fml, still getting the too few addresses error
22:11 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yah, Overlord, it's that spammer initiating loads of never-completing transactions. Adam is working on a solution for that, but it's complex and might take a while until it's ready
22:12 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] @MattRK: i've found this in one of my logs, there's probably something similar in yours?
22:12 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] [PaymentThrea] [DEBUG]  We have a fee estimate: 18259
22:12 < OverlordQ> Bumped it to 60 and still no-go
22:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yah, it depends on two factors: how often the spammer transaction hits you and how often you have real, valid transactions. If the first is waaaaay bigger than the second, even 60 might not be enough
22:14 < OverlordQ> yeah, had to set it to 80
22:15 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] we probably could increase that number by default; but i'm not sure if there's a downside to that
22:16 < MattRK> I didn't find that exact wording, but it looks like there's something like this for each transaction: 
22:16 < OverlordQ> takes longer, less annoything slow with secpk speedup
22:16 < MattRK> 2016-06-26 01:18:39,605 [MainThread  ] [DEBUG]  Based on initial guess: 10000, we estimated a fee of: 33847
22:16 < MattRK> 2016-06-26 01:18:39,606 [MainThread  ] [DEBUG]  fee breakdown for me totalin=6518570 my_txfee=33847 makers_txfee=0 cjfee_total=18 => changevalue=4598027
22:17 < MattRK> I'm curious what each thing is. (E.g. totalin, my_txfee, makers_txfee, cjfee_total, and chancevalue)
22:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] totalin = the amount of your coins to be joined this step
22:18 < MattRK> ah
22:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] makers_txfee = contribution of your counterparties to the miner fee(= tx fee)
22:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] cjfee = fee paid actually to the counterparties
22:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] which is, in that case, 18 satoshis, or basically free
22:18 < MattRK> yeah, i was just thinking that
22:18 < MattRK> 18 is nothing
22:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] rest is miner fees
22:20 < MattRK> Is each transaction that the tumbler makes just one single transaction? Or are the other transactions going on?
22:20 < MattRK> So when it says "that was 1 tx out of 15, waiting for confirmation", does that mean just ONE bitcoin transaction happened? 
22:20 < OverlordQ> yes
22:20 < MattRK> Or does 1 joinmarket transaction = several bitcoin transactions
22:20 < MattRK> ah
22:20 < MattRK> okay
22:21 < MattRK> So, on the blockchain, for each of the 15 transactions, there is only one transaction. That makes sense. 
22:22 < OverlordQ> been playing subterrain, kinda fun
22:23 < OverlordQ> oops wrong window
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22:52 < MattRK> AlexCato, can you explain what you mean by miner fees are static? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why running a larger amount through the tumbler would have ended up better.
22:53 < MattRK> I mean... A service like Helix charge a flat 3% fee. So if i put in 1btc, i should get back .97btc. 
22:53 < MattRK> I'm probably just not understanding something. 
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22:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] static fees means: miner fees do not change with the amount you tumble. You paid probably around 0.015 in fees for your 0.1 btc. If you had tumbled 10 btc instead, miner fees would still have been only 0.015 (no change... they're static, independent of the amount of transactions). So while this costs a LOT for 0.1 btc (~15 %), this is super-cheap for
22:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> 10 btc (~ 0.15%) and keeps getting cheaper the more you tumble
22:58 < MattRK> Ah that makes sense. 
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23:19 < Anduck> any statistics of jm's?
23:19 < Anduck> or joins..
23:19 < Anduck> i've a system to get statistics, on my todo list..