--- Day changed Wed Jul 06 2016
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01:25 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] So the #156 attacks are still underway quite Ferociously. What to do in the interim?
02:17 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] Anybody?
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02:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] a possible way is to use an exchange or shapeshift.io to trade the bitcoins for an alt, and trade them back again later (ideally, like the tumbler, break up the amounts you get back into btc to avoid correlation there)
02:58 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] other than that, the 156-attack is "only" done by one actor it seems. Might be not THAT big of a problem, unless it's exactly the entity you're hiding from (i.e. if you try to avoid coinbase getting to know your gambling transfers, you probably can ignore the current problem)
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03:21 < belcher_> the exchanges or shapeshift method can be made much cheaper and better by not actually exchanging to altcoins
03:21 < belcher_> instead just sending in and out of the hot wallet of whatever service
03:23 < belcher_> then you can use other hot wallets too like casinos, marketplaces, localbitcoins, etc
03:24 < fluffypony> they might end up sending you the same coins, though
03:24 < fluffypony> the altcoin thing lets you move it to another service
03:24 < fluffypony> eg. use ShapeShift to go BTC -> XMR 
03:24 < fluffypony> then use xmr.to to go XMR -> BTC
03:25 < fluffypony> and use the MyMonero.com web wallet as an intermediary there so that you can break up the amounts (obviously don't leave funds on a web wallet, but it's client-side JS and perfectly fine in the middle of the process)
03:26 < proslogion> can you do something like an atomic swap in XMR
03:26 < proslogion> for BTC
03:27 < p15> shapeshift might send you the same coins
03:28 < p15> I wouldn't do it either because how do you know you can trust them
03:28 < fluffypony> proslogion: not at this stage, but you can use a decentralised exchange like BitSquare if you want to avoid trusted intermediaries 
03:28 < p15> do they do atomic chain swaps?
03:28 < fluffypony> as p15 says, there's risk with the trusted third-party
03:29 < proslogion> fluffypony: i only want to avoid small anonymity set :(
03:29 < p15> monero also has very low volume to hide in
03:29 < fluffypony> proslogion: well the Monero side of things has a pretty huge anonymity set, so that provides your disconnect between the two identities
03:30 < p15> the average transaction count in a monero block is about 1
03:30 < fluffypony> p15: that's true, but since the "mixing" is with txos and not some sort of active mixing it doesn't really matter - you're not going to be leaking any information
03:30 < fluffypony> remember that both inputs *and* outputs are obfuscated 
03:31 < fluffypony> so even if someone had to guess that a transaction was yours, they can't tell where it's coming from, and they can't tell where it's going to 
03:31 < p15> correlation doesn't require precise following
03:32 < fluffypony> the precision isn't the issue here, the fact is that the Monero transaction will be a BTC-value less than you've put in since you're breaking up amounts
03:33 < p15> even just the timing can be used in network analysis
03:33 < fluffypony> which means once you've gone from BTC -> XMR every transaction whose total output value is less than that XMR you received is possibly yours
03:33 < fluffypony> indefinitely
03:33 < fluffypony> and once RingCT goes live in a few months you won't even be able to tell the amount
03:34 < fluffypony> at any rate, the deanonymisation and Sybil attack risks are well known and well documented
03:35 < fluffypony> https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0001.pdf, and then the mitigation we implemented here: https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0004.pdf
03:44 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] What does running the tumbler script without destination address mean? Will the coins be sent back to the same wallet?
03:45 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] It is running now and keep getting irc timeouts and reconnects...
03:54 < proslogion> fluffypony: didn't I hear there are no more than 100 nodes or so
03:54 < proslogion> so assume that is the number of real users
03:55 < fluffypony> proslogion: https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html
03:56 < p15> a bit more than 100
03:56 < p15> maybe 150?
03:56 < proslogion> 13 in China, that's nice to hear :)
03:56 < p15> maybe the feds are running half of those nodes though
03:57 < fluffypony> p15: nodes can't reveal anything about a transaction except the IP, which is of course something we're in the process of addressing with Kovri
03:57 < fluffypony> https://github.com/monero-project/kovri
03:58 < proslogion> lol there is one in the middle of nowhere in Gansu
03:58 < p15> that seems like a terrible idea
03:58 < fluffypony> (basically nodes will operate a bridge of mainnet and i2p connections, or optionally one or the other by CLI flag, but transactions will broadcast on i2p only)
03:59 < proslogion> I2P is actually also small anonymity set :(
03:59 < fluffypony> proslogion: hence the need for more nodes, and more research on it
03:59 < fluffypony> nobody's claiming that Monero and/or i2p provide fantastic privacy right now, by the way
04:00 < proslogion> i think anonymity is kind of an art, more than a science
04:00 < p15> people are the weak link
04:00 < proslogion> you need in particular those people who are not that aligned with your ideology to join
04:00 < proslogion> all sorts of random people
04:00 < fluffypony> definitely, p15, and there's no system that can prevent people from screwing up their opsec
04:00 < p15> maybe joinmarket should include an opsec component lol
04:01 < fluffypony> p15: one that automagically beats people over the head when they screw up? :-P
04:01 < p15> maybe it can be a video game where you can bust the weak opsec'er
04:02 < p15> oops you used a british slang, lose 50 anonymity points
04:02 < proslogion> Tor's value is not that its technology is great, but for historical reasons, all sorts of people that cops/state agencies are not interested in are using it
04:03 < fluffypony> proslogion: that's an excellent point
04:07 < proslogion> so we could argue that the clueless moon kids who run around like headless chickens with their money being thrown into any alt that sells anonymity, actually provides value
04:07 < proslogion> they greatly increase the anonymity set
04:08 < fluffypony> lol
04:08 < p15> except they keep their money on crypsty
04:10 < proslogion> p15: well then maybe it's in some ways great that cryptsy tanked
04:10 < p15> this implies there is a capability of learning
04:11 < waxwing> i don't know why you'd be concerned, an organization headed up by someone known as "Big Vern" sounds perfectly respectable to me.
04:11 < p15> or that someone who is honest would open an altcoin exchange
04:11 < proslogion> good luck cops with extracting from Vern any valuable information about who exactly withdrew XMRs
04:11 < waxwing> jc-loser i don't think you can run the tumbler without putting in at least one destination address, i'd have to double check though
04:11 < waxwing> the recommendation is 3 at least, you've probably seen in the options
04:12 < waxwing> yes all the alternative approaches to regaining privacy are great, but methods that involve even one iota of trust in a third party are going to be an anathema to a broad class of savvy users
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04:15 < proslogion> gangsta with a similar name doesn't call himself no "Big Vern", he calls himself "Bitcoin Jesus"
04:15 < fluffypony> p15: BitSquare seems to be growing in liquidity at least, so there's that
04:15 < p15> have you tried it? I haven't used it yet
04:15 < proslogion> i really want to find out how much volume Bitsquare has
04:15 < proslogion> just some rough estimates
04:16 < fluffypony> p15: yes - it's got a really decent interface
04:16 < fluffypony> like surprisingly good considering Manfred basically did it all by himself before other contributors came along
04:16 < p15> you traded bitcoin for xmr?
04:16 < fluffypony> p15: yes I have, although XMR liquidity is REALLY tiny on it
04:16 < fluffypony> like a couple of BTC a day, I'd reckon
04:16 < p15> so there are some traders on there just not a ton
04:17 < fluffypony> yeah
04:17 < p15> I want to try it
04:17 < fluffypony> download it and run it :)
04:22 < fluffypony> http://i.imgur.com/r8Deml0.png
04:22 < waxwing> proslogion: word on the street grey market trade at 6.9-7.0 :)
04:22 < fluffypony> http://i.imgur.com/eLu5B0h.png?1
04:24 < proslogion> waxwing: CNY?
04:25 < waxwing> yeah saw on some australian website comment .. not exactly authoritative :)
04:25 < waxwing> but i wouldn't be surprised either
04:28 < proslogion> waxwing: damn
04:28 < proslogion> i mean
04:28 < proslogion> damn u i mean i can only hold either GBP and CNY so which way should i go?
04:28 < proslogion> or CNY*
04:29 < waxwing> my financial advice is : 100% Doge
04:29 < proslogion> yeah much more stable
04:29 < fluffypony> wow
04:29 < fluffypony> such stable
04:29 < fluffypony> much hold
04:30 < waxwing> or just peg into nubits .. oops :)
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04:32 < waxwing> proslogion: seriously though are there no british banks with multi-currency accounts?
04:33 < fluffypony> mkarrer: we were just talking about you :)
04:45 < mkarrer> fluffypony: I was offline, is the a chat log somewhere?
04:45 < fluffypony> mkarrer: we were just talking about BitSquare in general 
04:46 < mkarrer> ah ok...
04:46 < fluffypony> proslogion was wondering if there are rough estimates on BitSquare's daily volume
04:46 < mkarrer> one is working on a statistics api
04:47 < mkarrer> but its not that trivial as u need to get the data form teh blockchain and combine it with offerbook data. the trade is private so u dont get that data from bitsquare
04:47 < mkarrer> there is still not so much trade going on, still bootstrapping
04:51 < proslogion> waxwing: people like me would be happy with any account
04:52 < fluffypony> proslogion: what about wb21?
04:53 < p15> quite a spread on bitsquare
04:53 < p15> why do you use this instead of poloniex, because that will implode at some point?
04:54 < fluffypony> proslogion: I have ZAR and USD accounts with them, and they accept Bitcoin deposits 
04:55 < fluffypony> and they support 18 different currencies 
04:59 < proslogion> p15: bitsquare was created to support fiat/bitcoin trade, crypto to crypto trade is just icing on the cake
04:59 < p15> ah cool I like it
04:59 < p15> they should support cash though
05:00 < proslogion> cash deposits you mean?
05:00 < p15> face to face cash
05:01 < p15> one step at a time maybe
05:01 < p15> not a lot of action on there
05:01 < proslogion> there are better platforms for that i guess, for non AML/KYC bank/crypto trades there is very little alternative
05:03 < proslogion> volume is arguably the secondary goal, i think mkarrer would agree with me the point of Bitsquare is to prepare for a global regulatory crackdown
05:05 < mkarrer> its chicken and egg problem. people complain there is little volume and dont use it, so there is little volume :-)
05:06 < mkarrer> but yes the strengths of Bitsquare are different to normal exchanges. 
05:07 < proslogion> the importance of Bitsquare lies in that it exists
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05:25 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] [waxwing]: Well, the script is happily running since a few hours now. Just hoping the coins dont end up at /dev/null ;-/
05:26 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] Anyone know where this comes from:
05:26 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] [MainThread  ] [DEBUG]  line was zero length
05:26 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] [MainThread  ] [DEBUG]  disconnected irc
05:28 <+JM-IRCRelay> [jc-loser] *This* IRC connection seems quite stable, but the JM one seems to be flaky for some reason...
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05:44 < mkarrer> fluffypony: thanks for the wb21 recommendation. just opened an account, was super fast and seems all pretty good (for a bank :-))
05:44 < mkarrer> do u know about chargeback risks?
05:45 < mkarrer> how long does the fiat transfer take usually? (not wb21->wb21)
05:45 < mkarrer> wondering to add it as payment method to Bitsquare, seems better than OKPay
05:46 < waxwing> jc-loser: there is a scenario where "line was zero length" is OK, but when it's deliberately shutting down. if you're seeing that *during* a tumbler run i guess it does just mean a connection issue, but not sure.
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06:09 < fluffypony> mkarrer: wb21 wire transfers take a few days, Bitcoin deposits are a few confirmations
06:43 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] so I interrupted the tumbler script (running without a destination address) only to find "IndexError: list index out of range" when running wallet-tool? :-O
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07:01 < waxwing> MrNice would you give more info? e.g. part of the stack trace, showing where in the code the error occurred? otherwise, could only speculate
07:11 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] OK. standby.
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] Traceback (most recent call last):
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]   File "wallet-tool.py", line 103, in <module>
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]     jm_single().bc_interface.sync_wallet(wallet)
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]   File "/home/dk/joinmarket/joinmarket/blockchaininterface.py", line 78, in sync_wallet
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]     self.sync_addresses(wallet)
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]   File "/home/dk/joinmarket/joinmarket/blockchaininterface.py", line 165, in sync_addresses
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice]     wallet.index_cache[mix_depth][forchange]])
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] IndexError: list index out of range
07:13 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] This is in response to: "python wallet-tool.py wallet.json" using blockr
07:13 < waxwing> how many mixdepths did you create the wallet with?
07:14 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] default? 0-4 i think.
07:14 < waxwing> ok, can you open wallet.json and tell us how many entries are in the index_cache list?
07:15 < waxwing> it will look like [(a,b), (c,d), (e,f), (g,h), (i,j)] <== that is 5 'entries'
07:15 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] [[5, xxx], [0, xxx], [0, xxx], [0, xxx]]
07:15 < waxwing> so, only 4. that's weird.
07:16 < waxwing> it seems like you created a wallet with only 4 mixdepths, but from what you say, it doesn't (i.e. you said you used default which is 5)
07:17 < waxwing> i don't have an answer right now, but can you do `git log` and tell us the commit hash of the code version you're running. will help to figure out what's happened here.
07:18 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] I updated to the latest development. But just reverted back a few for testing. No change. Checking my backup wallet now for levels.
07:18 < waxwing> (i'm assuming it's not the case that you simply forgot making a wallet with 4 mixdepths, and that something weird/wrong actually happened, but i'm not sure)
07:20 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] well, it was in april and frankly I cannot remember being asked the levels. But I seem to remember seeing 0-4 levels on queries.
07:22 < waxwing> right; well, i'm not sure, but i can't see how you can get that in the wallet.json file unless, at some point, you set the wallet to have 4 mixdepths instead of 5. there's only one place in the code that writes it.
07:25 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] Not sure if there is a backup of wallet.json I may have only backed up the recovery seed.
07:26 < waxwing> first thing is run with -m 4 
07:26 < waxwing> then after that there are other things we can do
07:29 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] just checked the logs, they all list "mixdepth=0" to "mixdepth=4".
07:30 < waxwing> i have to go for a while, but it seems to me that you could only end up with an index_cache in wallet.json of length 4 if at some point you'd run a script (tumbler etc) with -m 4
07:31 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] sendpayment ... -m 4 ?
07:32 < waxwing> sorry i may be mixing up my options, no, not in that case
07:32 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] Are the coins now "frozen"?
07:32 < waxwing> no. did you run wallet-tool with -m 4 yet?
07:33 < waxwing> that's the first thing to do, then other things like recover or perhaps just remove the index_cache. i'm sorry i can't answer your questions immediately, but i don't actually know the cause.
07:33 < waxwing> the coins won't disappear, but the exact correct thing to do depends on the cause of the error, really.
07:34 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] just finished yes.
07:34 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] balance seems right, but with one level less.
07:35 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] I *did* run the tumbler script without a destination address.
07:35 < waxwing> my only hypothesis is that there's some kind of setting in one of the scripts such that the wallet.index created on wallet instantiation ends up being < 5 , then the script is run, the index_cache is written and you're in this situation.
07:35 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] previously
07:35 < waxwing> maybe someone can take a little look at it
07:36 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] what do you suggest I do now?
07:37 < waxwing> i have to go. if you absolutely need to do something right now, i'd suggest doing a wallet recover (back up the existing .json) from seed.
07:37 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] ok. this is safe? how lng will it take?
07:38 < waxwing> why wouldn't it be safe? you're not destroying any data.
07:38 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] I can wait tho. am in no hurry.
07:38 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] Just asking  to be sure ;-)
07:38 < waxwing> how long? not sure tbh depends on the size of your wallet mainly
07:39 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] ok. thanks for the input.
08:19 < nkuttler> is the testnet joinmarket very active? just wondering if i'll be able to generate data for analysis
08:20 < nkuttler> i guess i could configure my own faucet to use joinmarket... mmmmh
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08:34 < nkuttler> can i send to multiple addresses at once?
08:41 < nkuttler> can i update my wallet to have no passphrase? or does somebody know how to send it through python? i could send my testnet faucet payments through the market
08:50 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] have lost level 4 of my index_cache in the wallet file for some reason. Done a recovery and found all coins again. Is there any harm in manually entering sensible index_cache figures into the wallet file, or is this dangerous?
08:52 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] In case of re-using an address which was revealed by a #156 attack?
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09:19 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] nkuttler: I am not aware that it is possible to send to multiple addresses. Not by default anyway. I am sure you could hack one of the scripts to do what you would like to...
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09:47 < nkuttler> trying to do it with pexpect..
09:49 < waxwing> nkuttler: take a look at test/test_wallets and test/commontest ; used pexpect there
09:49 < nkuttler> waxwing: cheers!
09:50 < waxwing> mrnice re dangerous; there is a chance of using an address that was previously marked as "used" (although not actually used) due to someone making requests, but not completing transactions.
09:52 < nkuttler> gosh, not enough counterparties on testnet
09:53 < waxwing> oh sorry yes, re that question, no chance i'm afraid
09:54 < nkuttler> anybody wants to run a testnet yieldgen? i have testnet coins
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11:36 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] waxwing: is that actually a problem?
11:37 < waxwing> not a huge one, no.
11:41 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] ok, then I have sorted out my issue. thanks.
11:50 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] These #156 attacks are still ongoing! Is there anything we can do in the short term?
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12:59 < OverlordQ> I gave up kicking trying to keep them out of the channel
13:01 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] I may have been kicked :-/ had some disconnection issues and now failing to reconnect?
13:02 <+JM-IRCRelay> [SpDr] is this chat collaboration of ideas?
13:06 <+JM-IRCRelay> [MrNice] not much collaboration. not may ideas.
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