--- Day changed Sat Jul 09 2016 00:57 -!- HeySteve [~Lizard__W@unaffiliated/heysteve] has joined #joinmarket 01:17 -!- alisa_ [6cab83bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.171.131.187] has joined #joinmarket 01:18 -!- alisa_ [6cab83bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.171.131.187] has left #joinmarket [] 02:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@0.red-95-120-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #joinmarket 02:18 -!- q-biq [q-biq@unaffiiliated/q-biq] has joined #joinmarket 02:30 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 02:33 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:36 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:36 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 02:38 -!- MrHodl [~fuc@162.219.176.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:42 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #joinmarket 02:47 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:49 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@59-129-11.connect.netcom.no] has joined #joinmarket 02:56 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #joinmarket 03:20 -!- fqtw [~me@x5d801b37.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket 03:29 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@112.red-79-153-18.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #joinmarket 03:31 -!- Giszmo [~leo@0.red-95-120-58.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:48 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:52 <+JM-IRCRelay> [mrnice] when is the halvinh sheduled? Today some time right? 03:52 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yeah, about 6 hours 03:53 < gmaxwell> at block 420000 thats as precise as it's "scheduled". 03:53 < waxwing> i think we should have a vote and consider other possibilities 03:53 < waxwing> i'm a strong 420002 proponent myself 03:53 < gmaxwell> I vote we take all waxwing's funds and share them among ourselves. 03:54 < waxwing> you'll have to pry them from my cold dead wallet! 03:54 < waxwing> which, to be fair, will be quite easy 03:55 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] unneeded economic supply shock... there's no plans to linearly decrease the mining rewards over time though, right? 03:56 < waxwing> i don't think it counts as a shock if known in advance. 03:57 < waxwing> but it's a valid argument to have, since difficulty response function has a lag 03:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] well, it could make miner profitable exactly until the point of the halving and make them unprofitable afterwards. Linear decrements would solve that 03:57 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] though the price rose enough for it not to be a problem this time, guess 03:58 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] *i guess 03:58 < waxwing> and arguably last time too ... there was a fairly big price bump in the months leading up to the 1st halving. 03:59 < waxwing> just seems like satoshi chose the simplest thing that could work, and the fact that there is no *unexpected* change is the dominant factor. but, it's a matter of discussion 04:01 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] cant count on rising prices for all future halving though. Changing it to linear should be quite uncontroversial too. I cant see any downsides and some potential upsides to this. 04:01 <+JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] but not a pressing issue for a while 04:02 < waxwing> interesting point occurs to me: if you treat supply as a percentage of existing issuance, it *does* slope down gradually; but this is much more true for the first and second epochs, becomes far less so in future 04:02 < gmaxwell> There are advantages to the way this works. though most would probably still hold if it smoothed the change over a couple difficulty intervals. 04:05 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@112.red-79-153-18.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09 < nkuttler> what the... apparently my tor connection on my vps is less stable than on my dsl at home.. 04:09 < nkuttler> but testnet coinjoin doesn't seem to be a thing anyway 04:10 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 04:10 < waxwing> nkuttler: if you just want to try it out i can set up a yg or two for you 04:10 < nkuttler> waxwing: not really, i was thinking about using it for my faucet 04:10 < gmaxwell> cool, JM works on testnet? 04:10 < waxwing> but i think we've only really done it when we had a strong need to test stuff; we have regtest for basic tests of code 04:11 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: ^ can you drop like a million coins into that? 04:11 < nkuttler> gmaxwell: well i get a connection and everything, but nobody in the market 04:11 < belcher> before joinmarket was on mainnet, it had a good 6-7 people running testnet yield generators 04:11 < waxwing> nkuttler: sure that's what i thought; i could set up a couple, but i only have a few coins, and i don't think others are motivated to run any long term 04:12 < gmaxwell> I'll get some up with testnet. Really important to have things like this on testnet. 04:12 < nkuttler> i have 33k coins, i could share 04:13 < waxwing> ok. am i ok with just 0.12.1? 04:13 < nkuttler> gmaxwell: cool 04:13 < nkuttler> waxwing: it's what i use 04:13 < waxwing> i could put a couple long running on my vps if there's interest then 04:13 < gmaxwell> on testnet you really should be running git master right now. 04:13 < nkuttler> gmaxwell: ok 04:13 < gmaxwell> because testnet has segwit which is enabled in master for testnet. 04:13 < nkuttler> yeah, i'm kinda lazy.. 04:13 < waxwing> yeah that's what concerned me 04:14 < waxwing> i actually still have 6 bots running on segnet :) 04:14 < gmaxwell> well not having it might mean you end up on a fork here and there that you wouldn't otherwise. 04:14 < waxwing> assuming they haven't died in the last few weeks :) 04:14 < nkuttler> gmaxwell: already happened once 04:14 < gmaxwell> Roger Ver has apparently been paying someone to mine Bitcoin Classic blocks on testnet and generally forking it. 04:15 < waxwing> heh, they're still running in #joinmarket-segpit 04:16 < gmaxwell> funny line of thoughts: Hm kinda silly that people use IRC for communication for things like this.. there should be some special message network for bots... a bot net. ... oh hm. perhaps not the right word for it. 04:16 < waxwing> heh 04:17 < waxwing> #justicefortay 04:17 < belcher> joinmarket started in my head as a proof of concept that i thought would eventually be included into darkwallet 04:17 < belcher> just a little toy that got way out of hand 04:17 < waxwing> they had like a "lobby" server or something right? 04:18 < belcher> yeah 04:18 < waxwing> i never actually got round to using it, wish i had now 04:18 < gmaxwell> it was down every time I went to try it out, esp the testnet version. 04:18 < gmaxwell> :( 04:18 < belcher> you could've had the server store the orderbook and upload it to new connections, rather then every maker uploading individually 04:18 < belcher> too bad that meant the server could censor 04:19 < gmaxwell> But I suppose one shouldn't expect too much reliablity from a project with a public budget that has a line item for weed. 04:19 < belcher> darkwallet was also always down for me too 04:19 < gmaxwell> :) 04:19 < waxwing> lol 04:19 < belcher> hah 04:19 < waxwing> "herbs" i think it said 04:19 < gmaxwell> funniest part was Amir's mother getting on reddit and trolling people by arguing that it actually was for herbs. :) 04:20 < belcher> oregano and cumin for all the marinated meat they cook? 04:20 < gmaxwell> hundreds of dollars of it! :P 04:20 < waxwing> vegetarians 04:21 < waxwing> they worked all night and slept all day in milan. interesting guys. 04:21 < belcher> i thought it was barcelona ? 04:21 < waxwing> just when i met them, but yeah, barcelona 04:21 < gmaxwell> I think it was funny and earnest. I didn't mean that as an insult, but though yea, not the folks I'd expect to keep long term servers up. 04:22 < belcher> much better to mooch of other people's servers like joinmarket does ;) 04:23 < belcher> i was thinking, with the multi-message-channel patch it might be okay for some of us to run servers, since individuals would have a much harder time censoring 04:23 < gmaxwell> well, better, perhaps not but at least more reliable at this stage of the project's life. 04:24 < waxwing> belcher: yes, why not. i'd envisage 3-4 is enough, but it'll be much better if no one *has* to use any one particular meeting point. 04:25 < waxwing> although, meh, people just gravitate anyway 04:25 < gmaxwell> blockstream makes little arm computers with ram with battery backed up sram which is zeroized on tamper, something like that would be pretty good for running introduction servers for this stuff. 04:25 < gmaxwell> perhaps we could sell them to the public in the future. 04:25 < belcher> for a while we thought we'd use subspace for messaging, but that project was in the early stages too 04:26 < nkuttler> subspace? did that ever take off? 04:26 < belcher> i think the developer stopped working on it 04:26 < waxwing> if we didn't have that pesky censorship resistance requirement, just hidden services a la bitsquare or ricochet would be fine i think 04:26 < nkuttler> mh 04:26 < waxwing> because latency of HS is really not that bad, it seems 04:26 < belcher> it was a nice idea, could've been something like bitmessage but better 04:27 < gmaxwell> hs latency is fine, ... kinda slow for ssh but anything else is fine. 04:27 < waxwing> i know HS security isn't as bad as it should be, but still 04:27 < waxwing> isn't as good sorry :) 04:27 < belcher> also if/when lightning becomes widespread, you could make a bitmessage which accepts payment of a few satoshi to forward encrypted messages 04:28 < gmaxwell> for that kind of thing a better architecture might be to just get chaum tokens from some centeralizedish servers... very low value the security of lightning is probably overkill, and chaum tokens have very strong privacy properties. 04:31 < belcher> could the exchange bitcoin <-> chaum tokens be made secure? like so they're not just promissory notes (i dont remember how chaum tokens work) 04:33 < gmaxwell> I was just expecting to be a promissory note (a reciept bearing one, so if the server cheats you can show others). In theory with sufficiently powerful smart contracting you can do somewhat more than that. but it's a pita.. but if you're talking about negligble amounts of funds for message forwarding in such a system, then I don't think prommesary notes are all that bad. 04:34 < belcher> reading this explanation now, sounds good, and yes the low value would be okay, the message servers could just collect up hundreds of them and then redeem for bitcoins 04:35 < gmaxwell> you could use lightning in and out of it, in any case, so total exposure to the note system would always be pretty limited. 04:36 < gmaxwell> but it wouldn't need to wait for ligtning maturity... it's a lot more techinically simple to make a chaum token system. 05:02 < belcher> gmaxwell what are blockstream's little arm computers for? 05:02 < belcher> if its not a trade secret 05:03 < nkuttler> oh right, reindexing.. now on git master 05:04 < gmaxwell> They're hardware security modules that run (arbritary user provided) code in a way which is tamper proof (after setup), they're quite powerful (e.g. half gig of ram). We use them in some products. 05:08 < waxwing> belcher: alexcato new comment on #568; short version is i think it's now basically correct. unfortunately doing pubkey recovery is a pain. i actually don't think saving ~67 bytes is worth it right now (although for sure should be done). 05:21 < belcher> waxwing ok 05:21 < belcher> out of interest, why is pubkey recovery a pain ? 05:23 < waxwing> well i see two ways: use the pre-existing pybtctools (nuff said) or use the libsecp256k1 binding, but there's a special setup for recovery there, which i haven't figured out the details of yet 05:23 < belcher> right ok 05:23 < waxwing> btw i could tentatively suggest we ditch non-secp256k1 for the new version 05:24 < waxwing> or perhaps not, anyway there are better things to think about 05:24 < belcher> that would be good to do when we're sure its installable on every platform 05:28 < belcher> one thing id like to do at some point is move more of the test stuff into test/, for example miniircd can go in there 05:28 < belcher> im writing a test now for bitcoin-qt integration 05:28 < waxwing> yes, miniircd but a lot of those other files like setup.cfg can't move iirc 05:29 < belcher> ill play around a bit at some point 05:30 < waxwing> it makes more sense to have the scripts not at top level. i remember discussing with someone that after we move the main joinmarket"-core" to a package, we could include "base-level" scripts to a subdirectory of that, and then user-level scripts can be anywhere else. 05:31 < waxwing> like have some base class YieldGenerator in joinmarket/scripts or something 05:32 < waxwing> libnacl should also go (see the install process for the electrum plugin; pip install libnacl, pip install secp256k1, python setup.py install in joinmarket-core etc .. something like that) 06:04 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #joinmarket 06:07 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14 -!- arubi_ is now known as arubi 06:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #joinmarket 06:50 < proslogion> there were Chaumian services back in 2011 06:50 < proslogion> not sure how it died and never came back 06:53 -!- HeySteve [~Lizard__W@unaffiliated/heysteve] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08 -!- eyeforeigneye [~quassel@2a02:898:162:1::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45 -!- q-biq [q-biq@unaffiiliated/q-biq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47 -!- q-biq [q-biq@153.92.126.244] has joined #joinmarket 09:47 -!- q-biq [q-biq@153.92.126.244] has quit [Changing host] 09:47 -!- q-biq [q-biq@unaffiiliated/q-biq] has joined #joinmarket 11:27 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 11:30 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:23 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 12:25 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18 -!- gielbier [~giel____@095-096-096-058.static.chello.nl] has joined #joinmarket 13:18 -!- gielbier [~giel____@095-096-096-058.static.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 13:18 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #joinmarket 13:23 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 13:26 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:55 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 13:57 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 14:00 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:08 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #joinmarket 17:50 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x5d807cd5.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket 18:08 -!- fqtw [~me@x5d801b37.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@59-129-11.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:47 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 21:03 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 21:21 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 21:23 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:43 -!- submav [~athena@185.65.134.81] has joined #joinmarket 21:48 < submav> can anyone catch me up on whats going on with the yield generator spam? 21:48 -!- HeySteve [~Lizard__W@unaffiliated/heysteve] has joined #joinmarket 21:59 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: megaddin, iinaj, molz, nanotube, phantomcircuit, viasil, brand0, starsoccer, bad_duck, Iriez, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 22:22 -!- DanielToots is now known as jacobtwotos 23:31 -!- sameer0234 [sameer001@173-230-179-74.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #joinmarket 23:31 -!- sameer0234 [sameer001@173-230-179-74.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #joinmarket 23:49 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@2.127.106.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]