--- Day changed Fri Jul 15 2016
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02:45 < nkuttler> i don't get it, why do all my coins end up in one depth? i thought they aren't supposed to ever leave one
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03:13 < belcher_> what script are you running nkuttler?
03:14 < nkuttler> the deluxe yieldgen
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03:29 < belcher_> idk how deluxe works but having your coins in one depth is good because you can coinjoin larger amounts
03:30 < belcher_> so it may be coded to aim towards that
03:31 < nkuttler> hm, i see
03:31 < belcher_> iv been reading the above discussion, quite interesting, the maker dosing problem isnt great
03:32 < belcher_> how about having each maker actually only ban the utxo with a certain probability, i.e. when they hear a commitment being broadcast they generate a random number between 0 and 1 and if its below 0.5 they ban, otherwise they dont
03:33 < belcher_> then a taker can still sometimes find makers to coinjoin with but a #156 snooper has to spend more money to do it
03:33 < belcher_> just a thought
03:44 < belcher_> waxwing: have you read/thought much about miner fees in the new protocol? joinmarket long term will also be used for using blockchain space more efficently as well as privacy, so that depends on sharing miner fees fairly with market principles
03:45 < belcher_> right now theres perverse incentives that the maker can send any number of utxos and the taker will just pay for them all to be mined, which is probably how those people ended up paying >10% in fees for a tumbler run
03:45 < belcher_> theres discussion in #120
05:14 < waxwing> yes, i remember the discussions, but i wasn't planning to work on it right now, if someone else does, cool.
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05:54 < waxwing> i'm going to implement the multiple base points thing today. after that i'm thinking add a coin age feature, e.g. 30 minutes (10 minutes probably is just too weak), but configurable.
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07:39 < belcher_> im trying to write a test for the bitcoinqt integration, after that ill help with the new protocol
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12:09 < proslogion> waxwing: what are all the sybil problems with JM?
12:10 < waxwing> the main sybil problem is trying to be multiple makers to do joins with takers
12:10 < proslogion> yeah i guess so
12:11 < waxwing> a practical scenario: a taker chooses 4 cheapest makers, but if someone is trying to snoop and manages to "swamp" the cheapest orders, he can be the entire set of counterparties
12:12 < proslogion> is this the main attack described in that paper
12:12 < waxwing> yup
12:12 < proslogion> is there evidence that it has been carried out at some point
12:13 < waxwing> i have always been relatively optimistic about it, because of the dynamics: the more honest makers the harder is to to sybil, plus multiple attackers makes it worse. plus the takers can choose non-price sensitively. so in a sense, the attack is very brittle
12:13 < waxwing> it would be very hard to detect i think, unless someone announced/showed they were doing it
12:14 < proslogion> well i just think this is in some senses related to snooping
12:15 < waxwing> sure, i believe it's accurate to call both of them sybil attacks, although the label might not capture that much
12:20 < proslogion> have you ever considered allowing fee policies?
12:21 < proslogion> or is that just yield generator stuff
12:22 < waxwing> ?
12:24 < proslogion> hmmm, no, bad idea, you can't charge differently according to the quality of the takers' outputs, that's directly against its own spirit
12:24 < proslogion> but there is some other stuff you can do
12:24 < proslogion> like charging fees in a probabilistic manner
12:25 < proslogion> thinking like 10% of the time you will get to do a CJ for free
12:25 < proslogion> i guess that will make sybil a bit harder
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15:33 < belcher> apparent coup in turkey
15:39 < proslogion> yeah about time
15:40 < waxwing> result of my "analysis": not clean, likely even to fail.
15:42 < belcher> why ?
15:43 < proslogion> usually intellectuals and city dwellers will support the Army, and the rural dwellers will support Erdogan
15:45 < belcher> erdogan is on vacation apparently xD
15:46 < waxwing> jhttps://twitter.com/kacsaatoldunet/status/754077645730516993/video/1
15:47 < waxwing> sorry about the j :)
15:47 < belcher> translates to "The tanks spilled out onto the street in Ankara a few minutes."
15:48 < waxwing> belcher: don't have an answer, just all the things i've seen, civilian dissent and not coming from top of military, rather a faction .. other stuff. obviously i don't know :)
15:48 < belcher> ok
15:49 < waxwing> that tank vid was quite remarkable :)
15:49 < belcher> yes
15:49 < waxwing> proslogion: remind you of anything? :)
15:49 < belcher> so looks like the tank drivers didnt want to shoot at protesters
15:49 < proslogion> well that's quite different
15:50 < proslogion> turkish coup is unique, and an established extrajudical intervening force in the national political life
15:51 < waxwing> yes i agree unique but e.g. thailand is quite analogous
15:51 < proslogion> thailand would probably had been fine without all the coups, Turkey...not sure
15:52 < waxwing> the gulen angle is interesting but too complex; US involvement via that angle perhaps. backgrounder: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/09/turkish-police-fethullah-gulen-network
15:55 < proslogion> i personally think Turkish election is the most interesting i have seen
15:55 < proslogion> all sorts of parties representing all thoughts and beliefs
15:56 < proslogion> before the result is out it's like anyone out of several parties would have a chance, frequently
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