--- Day changed Fri Aug 05 2016
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03:11 < nkuttler> hm, is somebody's yigen really slow right now? i see huge timeouts when sending from my pexpect script
03:11 < waxwing> nkuttler: i don't know. seems to be some txs going through.
03:11 < nkuttler> yeah, i'm trying to automate my faucet
03:12 < nkuttler> will try again later i guess
03:12 < waxwing> what kind of timeout?
03:12 < nkuttler> i've upped to 4 minutes now
03:12 < nkuttler> 8eec15b5c8ccabdf6b797cc9c57a802443a067b3590001143e710f68e991a3b7 went through at least
03:12 < waxwing> dcfb3657449eae6ec002209868edd4648d815c6e40a651d43773116371ba5b66 also
03:13 < nkuttler> oh, now it went through, but ends with not enough funds
03:13 < nkuttler> i think that was manual
03:13 < nkuttler> what does not enough funds mean anyway? me, or a counterparty?
03:13 < waxwing> you
03:13 < nkuttler> because i have thousands of coins in each mixdepth
03:13  * nkuttler scratches his head
03:13 < waxwing> so by pexpect you mean you're running a sendpayment with pexpect right
03:14 < nkuttler> yeah
03:14 < waxwing> well yeah not enough funds specifically means the utxo selection at that point did not find enough coins
03:14 < waxwing> it's hard to say without looking at it, but it could be if the coins are unconfirmed
03:15 < waxwing> sendpayment is designed as one and done; tumbler uses callbacks from the walletnotify to trigger the next transaction (well plus waits and whatnot)
03:15 < nkuttler> they have been in there for weeks
03:15 < waxwing> well but if say you had 1 or 2 utxos in one mixdepth and spent them in one, the change would not appear as usable until confirm
03:15 < nkuttler> hm, i've never used the tumble script
03:15 < waxwing> if the sendpayment was called again quicky
03:16 < nkuttler> ah
03:16 < nkuttler> that could be it i guess
03:16 < waxwing> just a shot in the dark, vaguely fits the symptoms
03:20 < nkuttler> that's probably it. no mixdepth has more than 4 used addresses
03:22 < waxwing> somewhat confusing is that wallet-tool by default shows *unconfirmed* coins also - this was to avoid people getting upset when they couldn't see their full balance. But it can be controlled with the list_unspent in the config.
03:23 < waxwing> building your custom setup is another job, i'd like to help but too much to do. there are probably all sorts of ways to achieve it.
03:23 < nkuttler> sure, np. i'll do some digging
03:37 < waxwing> nkuttler: it seems to me a somewhat acceptable solution might be simply to cycle mixdepths for each transaction you do.
03:38 < waxwing> suppose you have coins in N mixdepths, every time a faucet request comes along bump the mixdepth number. The change goes to the same mixdepth, so you hope that by the time you cycle round 0-1-2-3-4-0 the confirmation has happened.
03:39 < waxwing> wouldn't work with fast requests though. although you can make the number of mixdepths as high as you like, but then it'd be a bit annoying to fill them all.
03:39 < waxwing> crappy solution but just occurs to me that it doesn't require doing much.
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04:07 < waxwing> things seem to be working reasonably well today
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04:56 < nkuttler> i think this will fix itself over time, the more addresses i use
04:56 < nkuttler> i'll just run the script more frequently and let it error
05:06 < waxwing> nkuttler: if you run sendpayment for each faucet request, if you always choose the same mixdepth, the number of utxos will go down over time (at least, wont go up). because you'll get one change output per tx, but you'll consume 1 or more. so it'll concentrate and i think make the error more likely rather than less?
05:06 < waxwing> i mean that is also true if you change the mixdepth per run, but that way it's less likely to have unconfirmed.
05:07 < nkuttler> hm
05:08 < waxwing> i don't know if you've already got on top of jm tx structure but https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md#joinmarket-transaction-types , see case 3 "SpendJMTx" 
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07:13 < waxwing> https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/defending-against-snoopers-in-joinmarket-02/
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07:26 < waxwing> https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/racing-against-snoopers-in-joinmarket-02/
07:26 < waxwing> i changed the url, sorry :)
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10:59 < waxwing> just realised !hp2 broadcasts on pubmsg just exacerbate the existing issue that makers tend to reannounce after a transaction, which helps a snooper to know who to query to find coinjoin outs.
11:00 < waxwing> idly wondering whether you could have them privmsg each other. seems to be viable on the face of it.
11:01 < belcher_> then the spy just pretends to be one of the makers to listen in on those privmsgs
11:02 < waxwing> right
11:02 < waxwing> so it's really more about timing, not about public/private
11:09 < waxwing> but it's a bit like with bitcoin p2p network; if you receive a privmsg from A you don't know that A is the origin point.
11:10 < waxwing> (perhaps that wasn't obvious, i was thinking of A sends to 2 random, they send to 2 random, or whatever, that kind of thing)
11:10 < waxwing> hmm does that result in an exponentially blowing up traffic :)
11:16 < arubi__> not sure how it works exactly, but maybe also 25% to be censored? :)
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11:17 < waxwing> i really ought to have more of a clue how p2p networks actually work :)
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11:19 < arubi> was gonna say before but forgot, thanks for documenting all these developments on github and the blog.  it really helps to keep track for folks like myself who don't follow closely enough
11:20 < waxwing> yw, the problem is it's really a messy thing, if it was just 1 simple "fix" could write a short paragraph somewhere and be done.
11:22 < arubi> yea that much I figured.  proper coinjoin really turns out to be one of the more complex things to do with bitcoin
11:23 < waxwing> it's the coordination thing. you can have a very clean coinjoin setup if you don't want to attach an open marketplace, i think.
11:24 < waxwing> we want the freedom to negotiate, but also with anonymity of agents, and still keep out spying; that's a tall order.
11:24 < arubi> exactly, add to that that it's developed as a marketplace..  if it was just a philanthropic thing it might have been a lot easier
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13:31 < waxwing> anyone here got any legal knowledge and can draft a sensible looking "terms of service"? (i.e. something like "i will not use information retrieved on this software to violate users privacy" kind of thing)
13:32 < waxwing> it's weird because the user is not identified, but i'm not convinced it's useless
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