--- Day changed Mon Aug 29 2016
00:11 < waxwing> luke-jr: i can't remember if we made negative fees impossible or not, but 0 fees or 1 satoshi happens a fair amount, no problems there.
00:11 < luke-jr> waxwing: I mean I do orderbook and bid 1 satoshi lower than the cheapest :p
00:12 < waxwing> the current default Taker algorithm involves random choice weighted by fee (using an exp. dist.) so you will get a lot that way
00:12 < waxwing> luke-jr: yes i understood that, but it's academic compared with 0 or 1 sat
00:13 < waxwing> i'm hoping we'll switch to "random choice less than a user-defined max X" as it will get better mixing of counterparties
00:14 < waxwing> choosing with a certain degree of price insensitivity is really important i think (why i always use -P when i can, so i just choose anything reasonable looking and avoid the "bottom" of the orderbook, where you would be lurking :)
00:15 < waxwing> but to answer your question directly, this is a market, that's fine, the only "gentleman's agreement" element to this is please don't DOS us by writing bots that are infinitely querying other bots or something :)
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03:13 < belcher> successfully installed the libsecp256k1 binding(!)
03:14 < belcher> turns out i needed to upgrade my os
03:20 < nkuttler> i just had to upgrade that too. it was already installed though
03:38 < waxwing> belcher: upgrade OS from what to what? need to know if there are OS versions it doesn't work on and why
03:39 < belcher> xubuntu 13.0 to 16.0
03:40 < belcher> i think in 13.0 setuptools didnt go above a certain version
03:40 < waxwing> there were two mentions here: https://www.reddit.com/r/joinmarket/comments/4x7jqp/who_is_not_using_the_secp256k1_binding/ one for "old Centos" (unfortunately he didn't answer follow up), one for "synology diskstation" which i don't even know what that is :)
03:40 < waxwing> belcher: setuptools, hmm yes i maybe remember a similar issue with ubuntu 12.04 LTS, not sure though.
03:43 < belcher> btw could you run gpg --fingerprint laan
03:43 < belcher> check whether its Key fingerprint = 01EA 5486 DE18 A882 D4C2  6845 90C8 019E 36C2 E964
03:43 < waxwing> i'll probably try that again, think i still have a 1204 image somewhere. or maybe not.
03:43 < belcher> it's wladimir's release signing key
03:45 < waxwing> i don't have that one here, best i could do is fetch it
03:46 < belcher> iv checked with a few other methods, doesnt hurt to check once more
03:46 < belcher> its on this reddit post, as well as on bitcointalk
03:46 < belcher> and ofc bitcoin.org
03:51 < waxwing> belcher: "this reddit post" ?
03:52 < belcher> theres a reddit post where the new key and fingerprint is posted
03:53 < waxwing> typo "bitcon.org" doesn't resolve, missed opportunity there :)
03:55 < waxwing> belcher: what would be the command to compare a public key *.asc with what's on my keyring already? if that makes any sense
03:55 < waxwing> i guess just dump the latter to file and then compare bytewise
03:55 < belcher> hmm
03:56 < belcher> you could run gpg without arguments
03:56 < belcher> then paste in the key, then ctrl+d, and it outputs some details of that key
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03:58 < belcher> it doesnt seem to output anything for comparing though, like a fingerprint
03:58 < belcher> just a short id that can be easily bruteforced..
03:59 < waxwing> just --export on the key, then compare it seems to work ok.
03:59 < waxwing> or .. not sure now.
04:00 < belcher> ideally you'd just compare fingerprints
04:00 < waxwing> right
04:00 < waxwing> seems "--export" doesn't just export the public key, which makes sense
04:01 < waxwing> :q
04:01 < waxwing> heh sorry
04:01 < waxwing> so yeah i confirm the fingerprint fwiw
04:01 < waxwing>  Key fingerprint = 01EA 5486 DE18 A882 D4C2  6845 90C8 019E 36C2 E964
04:07 < waxwing> belcher: ^
04:07 < belcher> ty
04:07 < waxwing> i always forget to ping
04:31 < waxwing> i'll start editing the readme and other instructions in the 0.2 branch
04:31 < waxwing> adlai: ping
04:32 < waxwing> adlai: if you get a chance to update let me know, want to re-run that expt
04:43 < belcher> someone already mentioned it before, this new generatetoaddress rpc from 0.13 could be a way to properly write the tests for bitcoin-qt integration
04:49 < waxwing> belcher: yes, i vaguely remember that problem, sounds good. btw do you have any time to do any testing/reviewing?
04:50 < belcher> today yes
04:50 < waxwing> if not, it's OK, i'll just plough on. i'll try t get the installation cleared up, there are a few things to clean up.
04:50 < waxwing> first i'll get rid of the libnacl directory and put it in requirements.txt
04:50 < belcher> i havent even tried 0.2 yet so ill give it a go now
04:50 < waxwing> then also secp256k1 in the same, although have to address windows-specific name (no wheel yet)
04:51 < waxwing> so even if not yet a package, can still bundle up into "pip install -r requirements.txt" as one step instead of a few hopefully.
04:52 < waxwing> i'm also of a mind to move out the customised yield generators into a subdirectory or different repo, i think it's way too ambitious to be trying to support multiple
04:52 < waxwing> although not i created a YG base class already to move towards avoiding code dup
04:53 < belcher> ok
04:54 < waxwing> uncertainty there is i'm not sure which to keep as default, i had convinced myself that getting rid of mixdepth is highly desirable, as evidenced by tests you get a lot less reannouncement using the new yg-pe.py version, but it's really hard to fix on decisions like that, since it heavily affects a YG's "marketability" if they end up with only one price and coins broadly spread across depths.
04:55 < waxwing> i guess that's not really the thing to focus on right now. too many things to decide...
04:56 < belcher> so you're worried about announcements because it allows the 156 spy to know which makers to query again
04:57 < belcher> but if the spy already knows the utxo <-> maker mapping, they know who to query against when they see utxos being spent
04:58 < waxwing> right, *if* they already know, no problem. but that's our goal right, to reduce that knowledge set.
04:59 < belcher> the reannouncing helps the spy update their knowledge, it doesnt affect them getting it in the first place
04:59 < belcher> the first time the spy starts up, it can query every single maker
05:00 < waxwing> well so to keep 100% knowledge, they have to keep getting it "right" at each transaction.
05:01 < waxwing> it's really tricky, he doesn't know the taker's utxos, but if he can isolate that set by knowing all the others, he's ok. it seems clear to me that if some of the other utxos are not in his database, it's at least more likely that he has to cast a wider net.
05:01 < waxwing> and that wider casting will only really be needed if he doesn't see clearly from the pit who all the participants were.
05:02 < waxwing> the exact details will vary tremendously, but don't you agree that it will be harder for him, the less people reannounce?
05:02 < belcher> what does "cast a wider net" mean ? query more/all makers?
05:02 < waxwing> yeah
05:03 < belcher> i think the only way a 156 spy can ever work is if they query all the makers, so deanonymize all coinjoins
05:04 < waxwing> surely it's not a binary thing, they can get subsets, they don't always need 100% visibility of utxos owned
05:04 < belcher> okay, subsets
05:05 < belcher> yes, ok so its still useful to the spy to deanonymize only 50% of coinjoins
05:05 < belcher> ok then yes
05:05 < waxwing> certainly. but if our goal is to remove any possibility of spying on individual joins, we certainly haven't achieved it :)
05:05 < belcher> so if the spy doesnt know the entire utxo <-> maker mapping, then the reannoucement will help them
05:06 < waxwing> i don't think anyone's going to get that far in bitcoin, e.g. coinshuffle won't change anything (go up to the signing stage and you have the full set of utxos, since you have to sign them in plaintext)
05:08 < waxwing> although i was thinking about that earlier, if (as i presume is possible) coinshuffle can mix the inputs as well as the outputs, it does make the job harder because even though you know the full set you don't assign them to entities
05:09 < waxwing> i was a bit confused about that, the first paper just talked about mixing the output addresses, and treating the inputs as a given (an input to the protocol)
05:11 < belcher> i dont know then
05:11 < belcher> theres a tradeoff between privacy and maker's profits then
05:12 < waxwing> yup, i believe so. which is why i'm not sure what to do.
05:13 < waxwing> i said something along those lines in the blog: "The tension we're trying to address is that the Makers are trying to maximize their marketability (e.g. offering a variety of different cost rates for different utxos), while at the same time preserving privacy, but if we are more aggressively "privacy preserving" like this, it makes the whole system much more viable ... slight tragedy of the commons effect."
05:14 < belcher> if only there was a way for takers to check whether makers are doing this
05:14 < waxwing> yes, that was another though.
05:14 < waxwing> sophisticated algos that can check Maker behaviour .. it at some point becomes turtles all the way down :)
05:15 < waxwing> like the other amusing thought that requiring commitments via utxos means you can check which utxos were used for that purpose, meaning that you want to snoop on the snooper's utxos
05:15 < waxwing> so maybe we can get chainalysis to analyse elliptic's spying activity lol
05:16 < waxwing> and then they will use coinnjoins to source their commitments, and ...
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05:29 < waxwing> yeah, pushed a version without local libnacl and requirements in requirements.txt, will work nicely with  a virtualenv and then a pip install -r requirements.txt. added a requirements-windows.txt version because secp256k1-transient there.
05:30 < waxwing> i guess a lot of people will still need to do the local libsodium build tho', never got round to working out why apt-get install libsodium-dev doesn't work in many (most?) cases
05:30 < belcher> worked for me
05:31 < waxwing> ok, that's good. we dont' seem to get complaints about it much.
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05:46 < belcher> waxwing so right now 0.2.0 is configured to only connect to CGAN ?
05:47 < waxwing> belcher: we've been testing on cgan and rizon and freenode, rizon has hostmask but not Tor, freenode has neither
05:47 < waxwing> adlai set up a miniircd instance on a HS yesterday, seemed to work
05:47 < belcher> miniircd lol, unreal ircd is not very hard to set up
05:47 < waxwing> but i've been asking for weeks to find a Tor serving IRC server, none have been found, OFTC recently stopped allowing it.
05:48 < belcher> i was just reading configure.py and the default joinmarket.cfg only seems to have CGAN
05:48 < belcher> should i add rizon and freenode myself ?
05:48 < waxwing> everyone tells me there's tons of them but i can't seem to find any
05:48 < waxwing> yes for testing please do
05:49 < waxwing> adlai's is at az4jkp3ko2snghk4.onion/6667 if you want to try another Tor connection
05:50 < waxwing> seems to be up, but i don't know if he updated the bots, they were all running off the same directory, which caused a problem with the blacklist which i fixed in a commit yesterday
05:50 < waxwing> looks like his bots are on the other servers too, so you might get problems with that, unless he's already updated.
05:51 < waxwing> i've done a few tumbler runs by now and we've had quite a lot of txs, nkuttler has been serving faucet txs off it
05:52 < waxwing> ok regtest passes with the new requirements approach (just sanity checking picking up libnacl and secp)
05:56 < belcher> i need to sync a testnet full node, so might be a while
05:56 < waxwing> yeah that's quite something nowadays; i did it in the end, but there's always blockr right
05:57 < belcher> oh yes, blockr
05:57 < belcher> are people mostly using that/
05:57 < waxwing> i think so. there was some obscure reason i wanted a node, so i did it on vps box.
05:57 < belcher> wow 925823 blocks
05:57 < waxwing> but i'm using blockr for my takers.
05:58 < waxwing> maybe it was because blockr isn't perfectly reliable, a bit suboptimal for makers but maybe it's fine. i would just do that.
05:58 < waxwing> testnet is big enough to be annoying.
05:58 < nkuttler> for the last few days i couldn't use jm for the faucet, not enough liquidity
05:59 < waxwing> right. there might be more now, but i'm waiting for adlai to confirm update (he was running out of same dir, you might remember the issue nkuttler )
05:59 < waxwing> damn my /obtest/ is down again
06:01 < belcher> wow libsecp256k1 is crazy fast
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06:02 < belcher> then again this is only testnet, my mainnet maker has 2000 addresses in each internal branch
06:02 < waxwing> ok back up https://joinmarket.me/obtest/
06:03 < waxwing> 2000? slacker :)
06:05 < belcher> i mustve put my price slightly higher than the rest
06:08 < waxwing> which yg belcher ?
06:08 < belcher> mixdepth
06:09 < waxwing> ok
06:09 < waxwing> i just remembered i think i "silently" disallowed absoffer in yg-pe, must remember to fix that
06:12 < belcher> are you saying it wouldnt offer liquidity for low bitcoin amounts ?
06:13 < waxwing> belcher: no i just mean the new yg-pe.py, i forced it to do reloffer, it's nothing just a detail i forgot to fix up (i think abs gets interpreted incorrectly as rel)
06:14 < waxwing> it's only different in (a) inherits from a base YG (they all should now) and (b)different algo for selecting mixdepth to avoid reannouncement where possible
06:14 < waxwing> different from -basic i meant
06:17 < belcher> ok
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06:30 < waxwing> belcher: do you remember what setuptools version your old OS had?
06:30 < waxwing> must have been < 3.3 if i'm reading it right
06:30 < belcher> i dont remember
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06:35 < waxwing> belcher: oh sorry re: above, totally crossed wires, when you said "higher price" you were talking about real/mainnet, i thought you were talking  about tests. doh :)
06:35 < belcher> hah
06:42 < waxwing> btw TIL if you clone the repo and try to run regtest you have to first do `cd miniircd; git submodule update`
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08:20 < waxwing> https://news.bitcoin.com/shufflepuff-interview-daniel-krawisz/
08:21 < waxwing> it's nice and all that he gives his opinion on joinmarket, but i can't help being somewhat annoyed that nobody ever bothers to ask us anything
08:21 < waxwing> like that jamie redman guy that wrote a long article about how joinmarket was being used for the shapeshift funds when it patently wasn't.
08:22 < waxwing> oh same journalist. not surprising i guess.
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08:37 < waxwing> updated apparently, vaguely remember reading it before: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/575
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09:16 < belcher> reading
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09:19 < belcher> so far it seems like shufflepuff is based on coinjoin
09:19 < waxwing> https://github.com/BUSEC/TumbleBit
09:19 < waxwing> oh that. shufflepuff is krawisz' coinshuffle implementation
09:20 < belcher> ok
09:21 < waxwing> 800 inputs -> 800 outputs, using fair-exchange protocols. looks rather cool, author is in -wizards atm
09:22 < belcher> yep
09:24 < belcher> still reading the paper but do they require all 800 to be together in one place and time ?
09:26 < belcher> so far it looks similar to coinswap or chaum tokens
09:26 < waxwing> tumbler is a centralised server, just no control over funds, and not able to link payments
09:27 < belcher> yes, so chaum tokens would still allow the centralized issuer to disappear
09:27 < waxwing> you can see the server code in the repo
09:30 < waxwing> huh, this paper is not a 10 minute read unfortunately :)
09:35 < belcher> not finished the paper yet, but they require identical amounts
09:36 < belcher> each payer and payee sent and received 1btc
09:37 < waxwing> yes i believe so. but i think part of the claim is that you can achieve very large numbers of outputs because it's not restricted to 1 tx. nevertheless it is ofc still an important issue.
09:37 < belcher> so in practice they'd do it with equal denominations
09:37 < belcher> like how monero has fixed size denominations
09:37 < waxwing> yes like the 800 in their real example.
09:41 < belcher> page 13 seems to have the routine and maths presented as a sequence
09:42 < belcher> needless to say, they didnt use 800 bitcoins in their example transaction tumbling :)
09:43 < belcher> hold on these are p2pkh not p2sh addresses
09:43 < belcher> im sure their paper said they use 2of2 multisig
09:57 < waxwing> i think the 2 of 2 are about the off-chain payment channels stuff, which are used to guarantee the trustless, what i've gleaned so far
10:10 < waxwing> man, this is some *serious* crypto shenanigans
10:12 < waxwing> heh, a blinding of an RSA encryption of a symmetric key of an encryption of an ECDSA signature. and that's the simple part :)
10:16 < waxwing> T gives the puzzle to B, who blinds it and gives it to A, then A and T do a fair exchange of the bitcoins for the puzzle solution.
10:16 < belcher> is "fair exchange" a technical crypto term ?
10:17 < waxwing> A gives the blinded solution to B, who unblinds and checks
10:17 < waxwing> it's a kind of interactive protocol to trustlessly exchange
10:17 < belcher> ok
10:17 < waxwing> i've never studied it actually but will look into it after this maybe. they seem to be using a special type
10:17 < waxwing> that's one reason i asked about ref 32, because that's the one they're using apparently
10:19 < waxwing> subclass of MPC is what i always understood it as, maybe it's not a good characterization
10:20 < waxwing> if you took that as a solved issue, a black box, this protocol seems fiendishly clever I must say :)
10:21 < waxwing> they cf it with gmaxwell's ZKCP in the paper here and there
10:24 < belcher> looks like CGAN network had a netsplit
11:09 < belcher> waxwing could you pastebin the MESSAGING section of your joinmarket.cfg
11:09 < belcher> the bits which connect to many servers
11:10 -!- mode/#joinmarket [+v JM-IRCRelay] by ChanServ
11:11 < waxwing> sure
11:11 < belcher> or just pm me
11:12 < waxwing> that's what i have for makers right now, i've also run some to the HS
11:12 < belcher> ty
11:35 <+JM-IRCRelay> [RedAcor] Hai
11:41 < belcher> hey guys RedAcor is saying dont create so many clones since he's getting warnings about it on his server
11:41 < belcher> i know probably nobody here gets that problem
11:42 < belcher> not sure how to reach most joinmarket users except by setting an alert which seems overkill
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12:48 < waxwing> adlai: ping
12:57 < waxwing> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Sourcing-commitments-for-joins
12:57 < opal> _o< h >o_
13:03 < waxwing> oh i also made this one earlier, will deprecate the old ones once the switch is done: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Installing-the-libsecp256k1-binding
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13:33 < adlai> waxwing: sorry for dragging my feet, i'll fix the bots tonight
13:33  * adlai got a surprise visit from his new landlord tonight! luckily they seem like good people, and seem to think the same of me
13:34 < waxwing> adlai: np, it's more about stopping them than restarting :)
13:34 < waxwing> not that i'm trying to do txs right now, but .. well, you get it
13:41  * adlai kills all but one, so it's possible to run tests now
13:48 < waxwing> adlai: thanks, i'll be on it tomorrow (although my need isn't really pressing, but it may help others)
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15:04 < belcher> waxwing iv found some notes from the first time i was looking for a tor + clear ircd
15:04 < belcher> quakenet apparently allow(ed) connections from a tor exit node
15:04 < belcher> this place http://www.darkscience.net/wiki/faq/ has an onion
15:04 < waxwing> ok, i was asking last few weeks if someone else could hook it up.
15:04 < waxwing> i did try OFTC myself but they've banned Tor
15:04 < waxwing> kind of ironic really
15:05 < belcher> what do you mean by "hook it up" ?
15:05 < belcher> like find all the details
15:05 < waxwing> yes, and sanity check it works
15:05 < waxwing> that darkscience link looks promising
15:06 < waxwing> oh "as of 2011" oh well, maybe :)
15:06 < scooch> anyone have any experience syncing the block chain on a raspberry pi?
15:06 < belcher> not me
15:06 < scooch> tried to move it over and run it on my pi 3, but ive spent about a week now trying to let it process and reindex, takes forever
15:07 < scooch> thought this would be a fun little project, dedicate the pi to run bitcoin core and a yeidlgen.. but this is slowly becoming futile
15:08 < scooch> well any idea when syncing through bitcoin core... bitcoin-qt.. if I'm using a USB external, is it CPU limited or disk rate limited
15:10 < waxwing> scooch: i guess you could ask in #bitcoin, from what little i know, it makes sense that it might be too much, maybe disk, not sure.
15:11 < waxwing> darksci3bfoka7tw.onion does not seem to work (web or irc), but then that's obviously old
15:11 < proslogion> yeah, we still use Tor :)
15:12 < scooch> hehe, I think yall are talking about the next step.. saw a reddit post on running the core through tor, which will be a project for a later date
15:12 < belcher> core through tor and clearnet at the same time is good
15:13 < belcher> core exclusively through tor isnt that useful, unless your local government has banned bitcoin
15:23 < belcher> waxwing darkscience seems to work for me
15:25 < belcher> though iv got an odd feeling they are two different networks, they have a different motd
15:25 < waxwing> darksci3bfoka7tw.onion ? which port?
15:25 < belcher> 6697
15:25 < belcher> ssl enabled
15:25 < belcher> but
15:25 < waxwing> yeah i got booted. oh maybe i didn't click ssl
15:26 < belcher> it looks like the clearnet and onion are totally different irc networks with the same name
15:26 < belcher> /server -ssl irc.darkscience.net 6697
15:27 < waxwing> yeah it works, i should have guessed, it connected and then booted immediately before
15:27 < waxwing> might run some bots there tomorrow, if anyone wants to join. but yeah if clearnet is different that's annoying.
15:29 < belcher> seems so, just tried again
15:29 < belcher> clearnet darkscience and tor darkscience are not linked
15:32 < belcher> problems with monero? https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5071ox/psa_monero_is_easy_to_deanonymize_in_a_handful_of/
15:33 < belcher> coming from the fixed denominations apparently
15:40 < belcher> waxwing quakenet over tor exit node confirmed works
15:41 < waxwing> belcher: cool we can test it tomorrow maybe?
15:42 < belcher> yep
15:42 < belcher> ill just register a channel now
15:45 < belcher> quakenet doesnt have irc over ssl
15:54 < belcher> -Q- Sorry, but new password is too long (maximum length 10 chars)
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