--- Day changed Sat Sep 03 2016
00:00 < freekevin> https://github.com/DanielKrawisz/Shufflepuff
00:00 < freekevin> possible protocol change?
00:21 < waxwing> coinshuffle doesn't really address this, since the attacker wants to know the utxos of previous transactions by posting new ones, which he can do by carrying out the protocol up to the signing step
00:21 < waxwing> he must see the prevout utxos as the point of signing
00:22 < waxwing> in fact in the original coinshuffle paper it was proposed that the set of inputs to the transaction were a given, i.e. out of scope of the protocol (iirc), so in that sense it completely ignores the coordination issue.
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05:28 < belcher> i havent read up on the details of how ring signatures work
05:28 < belcher> but this guy posted this https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/issues/600 
05:29 < belcher> a bit vague but any ideas are good
05:29 < belcher> to sign bitcoin transactions you need normal ecdsa signatures not ring signatures, but maybe theres something im missing
05:30 < waxwing> belcher: i had the same experience. i was tempted to say "no", but then i wasn't sure if i had considered all the ways it might apply, so not sure.
05:31 < belcher> ill ask him on that issue
05:31 < waxwing> it'd be easier to answer if he proposed something more specific.
05:31 < waxwing> yeah.
05:45 < waxwing> belcher: i knocked together a web form interface for a bastardized create-unsigned-tx backend; but there's a sticking point - while the taker mitm key req. is removed, the commitment requirement replaces it.
05:46 < waxwing> so then i thought, why not provide commitments as a service, you can charge a fee for it.
05:46 < waxwing> then i realised, quite amusingly, what if someone uses the form repeatedly without completing and thereby uses up the commitments.
05:46 < belcher> who would buy that service ?
05:46 < waxwing> you're back to the same problem, in a way :)
05:46 < waxwing> someone wanting to do coinjoins without using joinmarket wallets/installs
05:47 < belcher> yeah
05:47 < waxwing> when i say "buy the service" i wasn't envisaging setting up an account and paying into it; the privacy model of that is really bad.
05:47 < waxwing> too much server trust, so i was thinking more ephemerally
05:48 < waxwing> which would imply that paying for the service would involve like an extra output in the coinjoin tx
05:48 < waxwing> but that's where i hit the above issue: then you're not paying for the resource up front, so you could just use it all up maliciously.
05:49 < waxwing> i still think it's a nice idea, even though *if* it worked OK, you still have some clunkiness transferring unsigned transactions into your wallet, and transferring utxos from your wallet to the web form.
05:50 < waxwing> but anyway i can't get past that point, another approach is for them to source their own commitments, but then they still need a subset of joinmarket code anyway to do the podle stuff; no wallet can possibly support that.
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06:26 < belcher> yeah
06:27 < waxwing> it comes down to having the secp256k1 dependency, you can use the add-utxo.py tool, but - that's what i was trying to find a way around.
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