--- Day changed Sat Oct 01 2016
00:03 -!- veqtrus [~androirc@213.207.159.54] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
01:26 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:56 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket
02:16 -!- fqtw [~me@x590c66e9.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
02:16 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x590c66e9.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
02:31 -!- Snooglego__ [~Snooglego@dsl-olubrasgw2-54f876-53.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #joinmarket []
02:56 < waxwing> adlai: belcher, anyone: what was the latest thinking we had on people running multiple ygs off the same wallet? i know we discussed the problem in some detail way back, but i don't remember coming up with any specific ways to deal with it.
02:56 < waxwing> i noticed yesterday a bunch of equal sized different bot nicks in the orderbook, seems highly likely to be multiple bots running off one (real) wallet
02:57 < waxwing> and also isn't it rather obvious that one could get the result of the address-reuse noted last week this way: two bots, same wallet, one does tx, moves index, other does not move index and so reuses in next.
03:04 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket
03:07 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
03:19 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
03:19 < waxwing> running multiple bots off same wallet will screw up in that way, pretty sure, plus the index_cache will be wrong after the N bots have been running for a while (they overwrite the cache with their own index)
03:49 < nkuttler> maybe just add a dumb lock file that prevents that unless it's intentional?
03:53 < waxwing> nkuttler: yes, sensible, can't see a disadvantage with that :) the non-intentional one is easy, as you say, the intentional one .. rather hard if you preclude identification, i'm not sure we even got as far as seriously looking into it, sadly. but maybe i forgot some aspect.
04:55 < belcher> you'd think it would be enough to just explain to people not to do it
04:57 < nkuttler> it's basically just a typo waiting to happen
05:07 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
05:14 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket
06:25 -!- Einherjer [~einherjer@69.64.40.177] has joined #joinmarket
06:26 -!- Einherjer [~einherjer@69.64.40.177] has quit [K-Lined]
08:14 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has joined #joinmarket
08:19 -!- rotarydialer [~rotarydia@unaffiliated/rotarydialer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
08:21 -!- rotarydialer [~rotarydia@unaffiliated/rotarydialer] has joined #joinmarket
08:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket
09:00 -!- megaddin [aladdin@gateway/shell/fnordserver.eu/x-smhreevafdufjula] has quit [Quit: https://fnordserver.eu]
09:15 * adlai isn't sure how to disincentivise this, beyond relying on altruism
09:16 < adlai> it does seem from a first glance that this would increase collected fees
09:17 < adlai> i don't think protocol v2 prevents implementing the kind of taker-side selection that i've suggested in the past, where takers poll more makers than they plan to involve, and then select only the 'best' ones
09:17 < adlai> this would (sometimes) detect bots running on the same wallet, since they'd have overlaps in their provided inputs; and a good disincentive would be for the taker to subsequently exclude both (or more...) of those makers from their transaction
09:18 < adlai> checking taker-side for cjout/change address reuse is trickier, i can't think of a way to do it that isn't isomorphic to querying an electrum server for the info
09:23 < adlai> this is almost funny, out of 91 offers (in the v2 book), we have 30 with maxsize 7.49206132, although they're from only 5 different counterparties
09:26 < adlai> waxwing: looks like ?scale=log still displays linear charts in joinmarket.me
09:45 < waxwing> adlai: surely it does increase fees collected, why not?
09:46 < waxwing> re: your idea, yes, it's a good one i think, taker could check utxos offered are a disjoint set
09:46 < waxwing> haven't thought it through but sounds good at least
09:48 < waxwing> ah i guess it doesn't scale well, hmm, well it's a thought at least
09:50 < adlai> another thought i had was ignoring makers with identical maxsizes, but that's a problematic approach because unrelated makers could sometimes end up in such a situation by participating in joins of the same size
09:51 < waxwing> yeah that doesn't go anywhere, easy to fake out of a check like that
09:51 < adlai> right, maxsize isn't verified
09:52 < adlai> re: increasing fees, running bots on the same wallet introduces the failure mode of bad-txn-inputs-duplicate
09:52 < adlai> but it's likely to happen less often than the increase from getting more !fills
09:53 < adlai> well i guess it depends on the specific fee distributions
09:53 < waxwing> yes the fact that that happens quite often was another potential bit of evidence for it happening. i think it can happen in normal behaviour but should be very rare ..perhaps.
09:54 < adlai> the only "normal" situation where bad-txin-inputs-duplicate could happen is if you're sending from a wallet that's also used by a yigen, and you accidentally (or randomly) end up joining with yourself
10:49 < waxwing> i just added a ridiculously long post about TumbleBit to my blog if anyone's interested in such things :)
11:03 -!- twokun [~two@46.19.137.116] has joined #joinmarket
11:12 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:13 < adlai> waxwing, belcher, i feel like i should know this by now, but... why do we need a PoDLE using a separate generator, rather than ensuring uniqueness of the input utxo pubkey used to sign the taker encryption pubkey?
11:14 < waxwing> the main idea of the separate generator is that the hash can't be derived directly from the existing utxos on the blockchain.
11:14 < waxwing> so if you broadcast a commitment no one can know which utxo it came from
11:15 < adlai> you forgot to link your blog post! https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/tumblebit-for-the-tumble-curious/
11:17 < waxwing> adlai: thanks :) did that answer your Q?
11:19 < adlai> halfway. i'm also writing a little comment to your post...
11:20 < adlai> does your blog support HTML in comments?
11:20 < adlai> specifically
11:20 < waxwing> adlai: tbh i have no idea :)
11:20 < adlai> let's find out
11:21 < waxwing> whatever token-for-scarce-utxo we use has to be broadcastable all over the place. well, at least that was the intention.
11:21 < waxwing> the "poodle" post on said blog tried to justify it.
11:22 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:23 < adlai> yeah so didn't work, if you could edit the comment... :D
11:23 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has joined #joinmarket
11:23 -!- pigeons is now known as Guest38420
11:23 < waxwing> yes, it might be related to the fact i can't put links in myself in the post, i have to revert to "source" mode.
11:24 < waxwing> good comment btw, it crossed my mind while writing, but meh, too much stuff.
11:25 < waxwing> damn, same trick doesn't seem to work in the comment editor in mezzanine. i'll just put the link in brackets.
11:25 < adlai> ok my question is answered, between your comment here, and the last paragraph of "The Problem" in https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/poodle/
11:33 -!- megaddin [aladdin@gateway/shell/fnordserver.eu/x-tzegsnltwumxacqd] has joined #joinmarket
11:44 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x4db24eb8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
11:44 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db24eb8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
11:46 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
12:25 -!- Guest38420 is now known as pigeons
12:33 -!- twokun [~two@46.19.137.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:36 < adlai> am i correct in understanding that the blocking issue for patientsendpayment is resolved in the second protocol version by maker_auth_pub being one of the inputs?
12:36 < adlai> the blocking issue being that in protocol v1, the maker auth signature was the pubkey used to construct the cjout
12:47 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x4db24eb8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
12:47 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db24eb8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
13:12 < waxwing> adlai: i had the impression that was the case, but somehow never got round to looking into it. belcher will know.
13:13 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.162.165] has joined #joinmarket
13:29 -!- megaddin [aladdin@gateway/shell/fnordserver.eu/x-tzegsnltwumxacqd] has quit [Quit: https://fnordserver.eu]
13:43 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket
14:21 < belcher> yes the blocking issue for patientsendpayment is solved with the new protocol
14:21 < belcher> one of my first things to do when i got some time was make it work and write a guide on the wiki for how to use it
14:24 < belcher> btw adlai are you coming to scalingbitcoin in milan?
14:25 < adlai> yes
14:33 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:38 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket
14:43 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:48 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.162.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
14:57 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-agrwjcgofabknpud] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
15:01 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket
15:05 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.133] has joined #joinmarket
15:24 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:05 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood]
16:05 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #joinmarket
16:17 -!- kranga [029b78b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.155.120.176] has joined #joinmarket
16:19 < kranga> is there any way to check the orderbook from the web?
16:23 < belcher> https://joinmarket.me/ob/
16:29 -!- kranga [029b78b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.155.120.176] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
16:46 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:48 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has joined #joinmarket
17:35 -!- fqtw [~me@x590cbf15.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
17:36 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x590cbf15.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
18:01 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x590cbf15.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:01 -!- fqtw [~me@x590cbf15.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:03 -!- fqtw [~me@x590e1484.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
18:03 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x590e1484.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
19:20 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.85] has joined #joinmarket
19:25 -!- DeathShadow--666 [~IDSE@S0106a0f3c1139365.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #joinmarket
19:49 -!- fqtw [~me@x590e1484.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:49 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x590e1484.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:49 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db1deab.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
19:49 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x4db1deab.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
20:07 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x4db136a2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
20:10 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x4db1deab.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:10 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db1deab.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:11 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db12e1b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
20:11 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x4db136a2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20:16 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-73-231-129-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20:21 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-73-231-129-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #joinmarket
20:34 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqvkbxjvwkhiqzbp] has joined #joinmarket
21:32 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:39 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.85] has joined #joinmarket
22:07 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x4db12e1b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
22:39 -!- fqtw__ [~me@x4db02e6a.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
22:42 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x4db12e1b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:42 -!- fqtw_ [~me@x4db02e6a.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #joinmarket
22:42 -!- fqtw [~me@x4db12e1b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:57 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqvkbxjvwkhiqzbp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
23:20 -!- twokun [~two@213.152.161.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:44 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wceohqpesdjbewkt] has joined #joinmarket