--- Day changed Sat Oct 29 2016 00:17 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 00:37 -!- JJ [dfecdcfd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.223.236.220.253] has joined #joinmarket 00:43 < waxwing> i haven't read the code, but can brent solvers get stuck in local minima? been ages but i used to know about that kind of stuff 00:48 < gmaxwell> waxwing: if you mean 'brents method' if the function is convex in the interval searched, then it can't get stuck in a minima, otherwise it will. 00:49 < gmaxwell> (it's purely a local search) 00:53 < waxwing> right. simplex method + simulated annealing was the one i liked the most :) 00:54 < waxwing> i think anything can get stuck in a non-global minimum if the search space is very noisy, annealing or not. 00:58 < gmaxwell> what is this optimizing? gimme context? 00:58 < gmaxwell> in moderate numbers of dimensions local searches with random restarts usually work pretty well. 00:59 < waxwing> gmaxwell: yeah sorry to drag you in, i was making a whimsical comment without going in to what belcher was talking about yesterday 00:59 < waxwing> he has a script which solves for your annual yield 01:00 < gmaxwell> so it's just fitting an exponential curve to some data? 01:01 < waxwing> i won't say more about how it works, because i don't know, it's here: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/blob/master/wallet-tool.py#L301-L501 01:01 < waxwing> it's handling deposits and withdrawals 01:01 < waxwing> tbh haven't read it yet 01:02 < waxwing> oh i see he has a gist, prob should have read that :) 01:02 < waxwing> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/blob/master/wallet-tool.py#L475 01:02 < gmaxwell> Okay, we can enjoy the make random comments on half heard things club together. 01:33 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 01:38 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 03:38 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:01 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 04:18 < belcher> waxwing the function shouldnt have local minima 04:18 < belcher> it should just have one root 04:18 < belcher> idk though, about to work on calculating the effective yield at every time step, should show up if theres an obvious step somewhere 04:18 < waxwing> belcher: hi, yeah well that makes sense. so just numerical search for a root? where the root is the rate in an exponential? 04:19 < waxwing> actually i did briefly read the gist when you posted it but i forgot all about it :) 04:22 < waxwing> i seem to remember newton's method for root finding, and brent being a gradient descent method, smarter. i should wikipedia, i haven't looked at anything like this for a decade or more :) 04:24 < waxwing> quadratic interpolation, ok. i "learned" all this stuff from that tome "Numerical Recipes". not very well, apparently. 04:30 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:31 < gmaxwell> waxwing: fwiw, on a lot of functions the quadratic interpolation isn't really helpful, also a lot of things describe it wrong. 04:31 < gmaxwell> but the algorithim is so robust you can put an rng in there and it'll still converge. :) 04:32 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 04:33 < gmaxwell> the really important thing is that it changes to bisection if it's not making enough progress. 04:35 < waxwing> i see. that's a nice simple explanation of what's going on there, thanks 04:38 -!- JJ [dfecdcfd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.223.236.220.253] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:46 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@cpe-74-64-92-78.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 04:46 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@cpe-74-64-92-78.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:46 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 04:52 -!- Numin0us_ [Numin0us@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rybpsyfxfdlkuvmn] has joined #joinmarket 04:55 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02 -!- chuckymcgee [443460bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.52.96.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:26 -!- molz is now known as moli 05:39 < waxwing> some people have way too much time on their hands: base64.b64encode(hashlib.sha256('password').digest()) -> "XohImNooB..." 05:42 < gmaxwell> and now we know how NSA picked the constants. 05:42 -!- Numin0us [Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 05:42 -!- Numin0us [Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Changing host] 05:42 -!- Numin0us [Numin0us@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ocwrfuomavibiobh] has joined #joinmarket 05:44 -!- Numin0us_ [Numin0us@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rybpsyfxfdlkuvmn] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:06 -!- Numin0us [Numin0us@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ocwrfuomavibiobh] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:47 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 07:23 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 07:42 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@185.65.134.78] has joined #joinmarket 07:42 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@185.65.134.78] has quit [Changing host] 07:42 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 08:19 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:22 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 08:35 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:56 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:51 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 11:11 -!- imposter [uid57046@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skxxxxtuktbfywkb] has joined #joinmarket 11:40 -!- chuckymcgee [443460bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.52.96.191] has joined #joinmarket 11:41 < chuckymcgee> If I were to look to hire someone to move joinmarket forward, what should I look for in a programmer? 12:03 < owowo> someone who knows python and the bitcoin protocol. 12:04 < owowo> and cryptography in general maybe. 12:16 < btcdrak> chuckymcgee: nice 12:17 < chuckymcgee> I mean, I've got to get some satoshis together first, but it is a project I'd like to see advanced 12:19 < chuckymcgee> It's a fantastic first steps here showing a lot of demand, but it's got to be a lot cleaner and more integrated before I feel it's worth promoting directly 12:54 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@128.red-83-47-106.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 13:20 < waxwing> chuckymcgee: i also feel that. that's why i started working on it (as we were discussing yesterday). the fact that progress has not been in that direction (refactoring, with interfaces that make it easier to plugin to other things) in recent months is because more fundamental issues had to be addressed. 13:20 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] imho there's two pretty different areas in which JM should improve: 1) usability by non-tech people, which means easy to install and easy to use, preferably also on windows. This is mainly GUI design, connecting gui functionality to the backend, and robust error handling with clear instructions if something goes wrong 13:20 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] and what can be done to fix it 13:21 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] and 2) what waxwing said yesterday, mainly. Refactoring, making the code easier to use by out-of-JM projects, so it can be easily integrated 13:21 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] dont see a big need of cryptography knowledge or internal bitcoin workings for 1) 13:22 < waxwing> i mean we could certainly have made more progress, but that would require more people working on it (it has been almost entirely me, if anyone feels that misrepresents, please feel free to say so). 13:24 < chuckymcgee> AlexCato: Agree with you on 1. I know very little about OpenBazaar but want to look into that as a possible avenue for integration 13:27 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] sadly i'm no python expert yet, have no clue about GUI and am not expert enough to do refactoring, so i help wherever i see that what I do can make a dent. Doing 1 and/or 2 are very time intensive tasks, even for people with the right skillsets 13:27 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] from what i've seen, you're doing the heavy lifting, waxwing. Represented perfectly fine imo. 13:29 -!- akonring [~user@109.56.192.53.mobile.3.dk] has joined #joinmarket 13:29 < waxwing> of course, it definitely misrepresents if we take the project as a whole :) so for clarity, i meant this year, obviously the more recent part is more relevant to the discussion. raising the point to illustrate one reason that there is not fast progress. 13:29 < waxwing> well, not like there's no progress; just made a release which should help in various ways. so let's say "not faster". 13:30 < waxwing> over the next few days i'll go back into that refactor branch, i haven't published it yet, because it's ahem "experimental" at the moment. 13:30 < waxwing> one project that would be really great for someone else to do, and can easily be done separately: 13:30 < waxwing> build a new message channel that promises good scalability and reliability. 13:31 < waxwing> you should only need to implement MessageChannel. Maybe i should just open a github issue, although nobody ever seems to take those up. 13:31 < waxwing> belcher: made an effort to document as many "nice to have" improvements for people to work on, unfortunately very few have been taken up. 13:32 < waxwing> another thing that's been sitting there for a while is the electrum and blockchain.info blockchain interfaces. there were open PRs, both sort-of working but the authors seem to have gone quiet. 13:33 < waxwing> but yeah i'll just look at refactoring for a little while, see if i can get something worth publishing; the main concept is to have something like an API for joinmarket as a protocol. 13:34 < waxwing> i think i put it something like this before: (Bitcoin) <--> CJPeer <--> JM Protocol <--> MessageChannel . that way the user scripts (CJPeer) can just do business logic, any gui layer goes there, no need for it to know anything about the communications stuff 13:35 < waxwing> and possibly the JM Protocol part + messaging can run in a daemon, debatable but may be good 13:36 < waxwing> the protocol can be enforced in one place this way, much cleaner. so if anyone wanted to write their own interface they'd only hopefully have to work at the cjpeer level. 13:37 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yeah, that would be great and potentially attract some talent who doesnt need to understand the low level stuff 13:38 < waxwing> the problems with integration from a wallet point of view are not purely architectural, though 13:39 < waxwing> there are also issues about signing, e.g. in 0.1 protocol taker needed to sign a utxo, that has been removed but now podle is required, which is if anything harder. 13:39 < waxwing> but i do think a clean interface like that is probably step 1. 13:53 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 14:20 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 14:32 -!- akonring [~user@109.56.192.53.mobile.3.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:51 -!- YesIam [25dc1b16@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.220.27.22] has joined #joinmarket 14:55 < YesIam> test 123 14:55 < YesIam> It runs! 14:58 < owowo> congratulation! :) 15:01 < YesIam> thanks... i habe a lot of time when run tumbler 15:01 < YesIam> hope new release mix fast 15:46 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 16:18 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 16:26 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:34 -!- JJ_ [dfecdcfd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.223.236.220.253] has joined #joinmarket 16:41 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 16:57 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has joined #joinmarket 17:01 -!- JJ_ [dfecdcfd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.223.236.220.253] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:04 -!- YesIam [25dc1b16@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.220.27.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07 -!- imposter [uid57046@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-skxxxxtuktbfywkb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:15 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 17:47 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wahkdadkfteibdna] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:03 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 18:06 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 18:20 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:25 -!- chuckymcgee [443460bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.52.96.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15 -!- freekevin [freekevin@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-hhpznvuangummvqw] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:30 -!- freekevin [freekevin@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-lrlgvveypmfouqur] has joined #joinmarket 20:42 -!- freekevin [freekevin@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-lrlgvveypmfouqur] has quit [Quit: vagina] 22:12 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ykxndtzmafgwcdny] has joined #joinmarket 23:51 -!- YesIam [25dc1b16@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.220.27.22] has joined #joinmarket