--- Day changed Mon Nov 28 2016
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03:01 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato1] @Goood: you cant use wallet files from other non-JM programs to do anything joinmarket-related. You have to move the funds to a joinmarket-wallet first before you can do any tumbling/yieldgenerating
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04:05 <@waxwing> we're now up to 294 in cgan and 66 in agora. agora's captcha thing is quite funky, you can't register until you solve the captcha, but you have to join a channel first. it's rather weird but i certainly understand why it's there.
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06:00 < tergi> who ever J59vPt6RAdp6on6c is...wish i had that much bitcoin haha :)
06:01 < tergi> few ppl in here with lots of btc in YG
06:29 < JM-IRCRelay> [arubi] o/  finally figured out why cgan was not accepting my cert
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07:17 < adlai> tergi: it doesn't actually exist unless you do a coinjoin and see those amounts move on-chain
07:18 < tergi> ppl are faking their orders?
07:19 < adlai> there were fake orders for a while
07:19 < tergi> huh... 
07:19 < adlai> the current ones "look" real
07:19  * adlai glances at size of inputs to recent cjs...
07:55  * adlai doesn't see any coins larger than 2 digit btc sums in inputs to recent cjs
07:56 < adlai> then again, "recent" cjs is only the last ~400
07:56 < adlai> larger cjs happen less often, so large utxos probably sit dormant for a long time
07:58 < kakobrekla> the vast majority seems to be sub 1 btc or is my observation bad
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08:09 < adlai> i'd say it's roughly half.
08:09 < tergi> so do you get 1 order on the book for every output you have?
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08:11 < adlai> kakobrekla: you're quite correct about the set of recent ones. >90% <1btc
08:11 < kakobrekla> i loaded it with ~5 for testing purpose and iirc there was 0.5% of tx larger than 1b
08:12 < kakobrekla> roughly estimate by eyeballing history
08:12 < adlai> 34 out of the last 471
08:12 < adlai> 7 larger than 10btc
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08:13 < kakobrekla> worth considering when thinking wher the optimal risk-reward ratio is
08:13 < kakobrekla> (no this is not completely risk free as per your video :p)
08:13 < kakobrekla> or maybe i misremembered
08:14 < adlai> hm iirc i did tell people to read the code themselves, but that may have just been dozens of times in-person, and not in the talk itself
08:14 < kakobrekla> what helps you read the code if we dont even have a deterministic computers!
08:15 < adlai> people reading the code is how exploits have been fixed
08:15 < adlai> jm does act a little nondeterministic at times
08:16 < kakobrekla> well the point is not all the risk can be handleld by reading the code
08:16 < adlai> coins dancing in the depths, suddenly vanishing from wallet-tool only to reappear without explanation after the seventeenth bitcoind -rescan
08:16 < adlai> although --fast is quite reliable :)
08:16 < adlai> sure
08:17  * adlai worries, having seen that people are running jm on servers rather than hardware in their own control
08:18 < kakobrekla> yes, i get the chills when i hear ' it runs on heroku ! '
08:18 < adlai> the key generator that jm uses, taken straight from electrum, almost certainly produces less entropy than expected in such a situation
08:18 < kakobrekla> also isnt that thing also expencive as fuck.
08:18 < adlai> heroku? i've only ever seen people mooching off it.
08:19 < kakobrekla> no idea
08:19  * adlai doesn't know where they get the free servers, probably same place people get free aws, free facebook views, free bitcoin...
08:19 < kakobrekla> somene here was seting up a guide , all i know
08:19 < adlai> that's exactly what got me a little worried.
08:21 < adlai> the specific issue with entropy can be mitigated by generating wallets locally, but you're still entrusting your btc to some random company's security and goodwill
08:22 < kakobrekla> agreed
08:23 < kakobrekla> but even if you manage to convolute this risk assesement into an acceptable form, there is an optimal balance amount for yg
08:24 < kakobrekla> at least based on looking at past x txen
08:25 < adlai> that can be interpreted two ways, both of which are valid - optimal percentage to invest, given the reward vs the risk of running a hot wallet (even in hardware that ~currently~ is in your control) - or, optimal level(s) for a given yg's largest offer
08:25 < adlai> re: the latter interpretation, feel free to 'sybil attack' the market
08:26  * adlai bbl
08:27 < kakobrekla> not convniced those two ways are separate from one another 
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08:46 < havar> Is it "safe" to run sendpayment  while the yield generator is running?
08:59 < OverlordQ> If it picks yourself things will break
09:08 < havar> What if I'm using direct_send anyway? 
09:08 < havar> Then that's fine?
09:10 <@waxwing> havar: i'd have to check, but it's probably better to shut down yg and wait 1 conf. i only say that because i think your yg's wallet.unspent is not going to be updated, it only listens for notifications that it was involved in.
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09:11 <@waxwing> it's not going to lose you money or something but it could cause a problem. plus, i'm not 100% sure, this is just my first thought without looking into it in more detail.
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11:02 < tergi> wonder why the bulk of joins are so small. most less than a dollar. 
11:02 <@waxwing> tergi: less than a dollar?!
11:02 < tergi> well sorry not less than a dollar but around 5 dollars or so US
11:04 <@waxwing> people really shouldn't try to use this for less than $20-30 imo. except for testing. you can force your minimum size to be higher, see the settings at the top of your yield-generator script.
11:04 < tergi> i dont think it matters much to me
11:04 < tergi> i use abs fee so it all generates the same
11:05 <@waxwing> it creates lower average utxo size for you, though.
11:05 <@waxwing> or, well, i suppose it's a bit complicated. it seems that it should.
11:06 < tergi> im curious of my %, but i have not been able to get those support libraries working
11:06 < tergi> numpy and scipy
11:06 <@waxwing> well if you don't care about accuracy, you can just read the csv file and add up the column with the fees :) it'll give you some idea what's going on.
11:06 <@waxwing> don't get your hopes up :)
11:08 < tergi> well i know its not a get rich thing.
11:08 < tergi> i mean my fee is only .00001
11:08 < tergi> i dont think i have had 100 joins total yet
11:09 <@waxwing> yes, i guess with absfee it's slightly easier to get a sense of what you've earned :)
11:09 < tergi> but getting the percentage earned on the "account" is what im curious of. im not sure how to calculate that myself 
11:09 < tergi> im crap at math stuff
11:09 <@waxwing> interesting report though, i've seen "microjoins" before but one's visibility into what's happening gets very skewed by the whole orderbook profile. i didn't know.
11:10 <@waxwing> well, by the whole orderbook combined with oneself that is. of course.
11:10 < tergi> yes. i guess i dont see as many as i thought. but i do get on a some what regular basis .008 and .005 ish sized joins
11:10 < tergi> ive sseen as small as .01
11:10 < tergi> .001
11:11 <@waxwing> i do find that in the last week or two, there has been a heavy favouring of smaller, in my own joins, compared to larger. it seemed there were a lot more larger about a month ago. but, shrug, the whole things' extremely opaque.
11:12 < tergi> yea. just curiosity for me mostly
11:15 <@waxwing> wasting far too much time trying to figure out how to get setuptools to install subsets of the packages in a project. it seems to only want to install everything at once in one "egg".
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11:48 < Goood> What's the best approach for mixing coins from my current non JoinMarket wallet, and then using those same coins to run yieldgenerator? It looks to me like the best way to maintain anonymity is to: 1) Create JoinMarket wallet 2) SendPayment through JoinMarket to the JoinMarket wallet 3) Run a Bitcoin Node running YieldGenerator Does that work?
11:49 <@waxwing> Goood: just fund the joinmarket wallet by sending coins to addresses on the external branches. i think you'll find this mentioned in the wiki.
11:50 < Goood> hmm, I don't know what External Branches are, I'll take a look at the Wiki again
11:50 <@waxwing> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Using-the-JoinMarket-internal-wallet#funding
11:54 < Goood> hmm, does that maintain privacy though? for example, if I send from multiple addresses to 5 external branches -- then its known that the 5 external branches are from the same owner
11:54 < Goood> even after running yieldgenerator, the coins return to the same branches right?
11:58 <@waxwing> Goood: well first, no, that is not known, at least initially. if you make 5 payments to different addresses they are not necessarily linked.
11:59 <@waxwing> second, it is through coinjoins that we're trying to improve privacy. it's taken as somewhat of a given that the coins going in are not in a "high privacy state" although that's very hard to be precise about.
11:59 <@waxwing> and third don't forget that running a yield-generator is for yield, not *primarily* to increase privacy, although unquestionably over time you get that effect.
11:59 <@waxwing> afk     
11:59 < Goood> thanks
12:16 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] eduard6 opened pull request #672: Enhance showutxos (JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket#656) (develop...showutxos) https://git.io/v1tf7
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13:10 < adlai> waxwing: of the aforementioned 471 joins, 197 are six digit satoshi values
13:11 < adlai> oh, this does count those false positives we saw the other day.
13:25 < Goood> any idea of average monthly/daily volume through JoinMarket?
13:32 < OverlordQ> $Texas
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14:27 < havar> Sorry, I got disconnected a couple hours ago and don't have scrollback. Was there ever a reply to my question? :D
14:28 <@waxwing> <waxwing> havar: i'd have to check, but it's probably better to shut down yg and wait 1 conf. i only say that because i think your yg's wallet.unspent is not going to be updated, it only listens for notifications that it was involved in.
14:28 <@waxwing> <waxwing> it's not going to lose you money or something but it could cause a problem. plus, i'm not 100% sure, this is just my first thought without looking into it in more detail.
14:29 <@waxwing> i've always just stopped ygs first myself.
14:30 < adlai> btw the two worst things that could happen: somebody making a join with your yg will have to retry with another (or fewer) maker(s), or - you'll double-spend against yourself without noticing, because your yg will take a tx while you're sendpaymenting
14:30 < adlai> specifically, i mean that your yg will NOT crash from doing this
14:31 < adlai> even if it tries to spend stxos, it will just call listunspent again and use those
14:32 <@waxwing> that sounds right, only the last part i wasn't sure about.
14:33 <@waxwing> good general rule is, the scripts were never written with concurrent running of more than one in parallel. they assume ownership of the wallet while running and keep their own view of its state internally.
14:38 <@waxwing> we should have a lock, if that statement is unqualifiedly true. i think someone already said that once. or maybe it was another context.
14:38  * waxwing zzzz
14:41  * adlai thinks 'lock' might be a typo for 'look'... python already has a lock :P https://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock
14:42 < adlai> ahahaha "Two threads calling a function may take twice as much time as a single thread calling the function twice."
15:08 < havar> waxwing: ah, thanks
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20:51 < Goood> is there anythin unique about wallet-tools.py generate?
20:52 < Goood> could I just copy a wallet file from another app and use that for JoinMarket?
20:58 < adlai> yes, there is; no, you can't.
20:59 < adlai> joinmarket can import private keys though
20:59 < adlai> there's a command in wallet-tool.py for doing that, so you can generate a wallet but then import the keys rather than funding it... but this is more error-prone than just making a transaction from your other wallet to fund the JM wallet
21:01 < Goood> ok thanks!
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