--- Day changed Mon Dec 26 2016
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06:03 < belcher> to anarchohumanist you can use wallet-tool.py dumpprivkey
06:03 < belcher> or you can open joinmarket/blockchaininterface.py and replace all "https" with "http" then it will work
06:07 < waxwing> it was interesting that it took a few days to start getting the sslcert fail questions :)
06:15 < belcher> holidays?
06:16 < waxwing> yeah. at blockr also. will the last person to use blockr.io please switch off the light :)
06:16 < waxwing> travis support is also AWOL until the 9th Jan
06:16 < waxwing> alright AWL :)
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13:33 < belcher> market fee rates really crashed around christmas https://bitcoinfees.github.io/#3h :P
13:34 < belcher> perhaps that idea of the-algorithms-dont-respond-well-to-falling-demand isnt exactly right then
13:38 < owowo> must be Roger Vers argument.
13:38 < belcher> nah roger ver's argument is "fees must be lower" with not much more nuance than that
13:39 < belcher> i thought the algorithm didnt respond that well to falling demand since i got something confirmed for 2 satoshi-per-byte
13:39 < owowo> I always hear "Need bigger blocks"
13:39 < belcher> though it always says 90% probability so maybe i just got lucky
13:40 < belcher> 6 months ago rusty's analysis showed users dont care about fees https://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=591
13:40 < belcher> so like they get quoted a figure for miner fees and every just presses "yes", so the fee rate only ever goes up
13:41 < waxwing> belcher: yes but to be fair, the UIs are not good enough for the average joe to make a fine distinction.
13:41 < owowo> bitcoiners are all so filthyfuckrich, they just do not care. ;)
13:41 < belcher> there must reach a point where users see the fee and think its too expensive then dont make the transaction, only that can be the downward pull on the fee
13:42 < gmaxwell> belcher: I think most software doesn't really handle the weekly load cycle well yet.
13:42 < belcher> theres this owner of a bitcoin casino saying hes seen users be far more careful with their transactions now https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/53wucs/why_arent_blocks_full_yet/d7x19iv
13:42 < waxwing> i remember about a year ago how many users were upset because they finally found that entering 'zero' or '1k' for fees, no matter the transaction, no longer worked
13:42 < waxwing> now i suspect the average user has flipped and sets sliders all the way to the right.
13:42 < gmaxwell> belcher: falling demand, sure, demand dropping 10 fold on two days.. less so.
13:42 < belcher> yeah
13:43 < waxwing> i've just grumpily corrected someone on r/Bitcoin about "high fees and long confirmation times". there is a very broad class of people that have convinced themselves that we now suffer from *both* these problems in bitcoin.
13:43 < belcher> when i last looked mycelium just had options of low priority, economic, normal and priority, and it doesnt tell you actual fee before broadcasting
13:43 < waxwing> even though it's barely even logically possible that the latter could be true.
13:44 < belcher> i wonder what the best way to handle the weekly cycle is, most users wont even know about unless they look at graphs of the transaction count or fee rate
13:46 < belcher> another interesting thing is fee rates seem to be fixed in bitcoins, even when the exchange rate goes up, wouldnt you think the cost of block space would be fixed in dollars, or a basket of real goods and services
13:46 < waxwing> very long lag on that i suspect
13:48 < belcher> there was that tweet a few days ago about "miner fees have gone up by 1000% since the start of 2016" and almost all of that is because of the btc/usd rate
13:49 < waxwing> 'almost all' is a stretch, eh, exchange rate's gone up 100% :)
13:49 < belcher> (i forgot the exact number, it wasnt 1000% but something else)
13:49 < waxwing> i think it was 1000
13:49 < belcher> (or yes, 'almost all' might be my own spin) :p
13:49 < waxwing> i saw it too, jameson lopp i think
13:49 < belcher> anyway in other news, these last few days iv been working on patientsendpayment since now that theres a new protocol we can actually use it
14:54 < waxwing> been having a fun chat with ethan on the tumblebit slack, there's an IRC server you can use belcher 
14:54 < belcher> oh ty
14:54 < belcher> yeah i asked him to enable the bridge
14:55 < belcher> theres the bitcoin slack too which has a bridge
14:56 < waxwing> belcher: i don't think it's a bridge as such
14:56 < waxwing> hang on let me copy/paste
14:56 < waxwing> <waxwing> use https://tumblebit.slack.com/account/gateways to get a password, port 6667 but set it to ssl
14:56 < belcher> ah, two meanings of the word bridge, i meant that :)
14:57 < waxwing> ok got it
14:57 < waxwing> server is tumblebit.irc.slack.com
15:10 < gmaxwell> people are really using slack to talk about tumblebit? 
15:10 < waxwing> heh. well, i'm not :)
15:10 < belcher> not just any people, the people who came up with tumblebit
15:11 < gmaxwell> belcher: yea, I've wondered about feerate in bitcoins. Really bitcoin prices move slowly enough that users should be able to adjust their preferences.  We don't really have any good 'bitcoin to basket of goods' indexes available.
15:11 < waxwing> well what am i saying, of course slack still "owns" my messages :)
15:11 < gmaxwell> ::facepalm:: well they also used that fool name which is basically begging some prosecutor to confuse it with money laundering.
15:15 < gmaxwell> waxwing: a lot of that fud is being spread by people who don't (maybe never) use Bitcoin... so they probably do find it plausable that high fee and high confirmation time are both true.
15:15 < gmaxwell> Also there are a number of people saying any transaction fee higher than a half cent USD is 'high'.
15:16 < gmaxwell> owowo: people are weird about fees, I've watched people with millions of dollars in assets fret over a few cents fee difference.  The move from no fees to fees was a big cognative step for many Bitcoin users.
15:17 < belcher> gmaxwell by "basket of goods and services" i basically mean USD (unless the dollar goes hyperinflationary)
15:17 < gmaxwell> belcher: yes-- sure, though ... kind of sending the wrong message. 
15:19 < belcher> we can use barrels of oil, grain or SDRs instead of the USD
15:19 < gmaxwell> E.g. I'd prefer to use some metric in commodities even if the conversion goes via the btc/usd exchange rate... just because its important to not think of Bitcoin as a proxy for 'real money'.
15:21 < belcher> electricity maybe, its a major cost for miners who produce this block space
15:30 < juscamarena> Yes, many complain about a couple of cents, and think most transactions should somehow always be half a cent or in their words almost free
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17:20 < cptanarchy> anyone know if an SSL cert error in wallet tool is a known issue or if I just botched up the build beyond recognition?
17:21 < belcher> a known issue, its because blockr.io's ssl cert has expired
17:21 < belcher> cptanarchy ^
17:21 < cptanarchy> ohhh. so once my bitcoin core syncs up it should work with that?
17:22 < belcher> yep     
17:22 < cptanarchy> my main problem is I have a .json wallet, the password, but not the seed, and no way to access the funds unless I can get this to work. I think
17:23 < cptanarchy> I found some garbled addresses in bci.py but I think those are public keys
17:23 < belcher> well you can find and replace all "https" to "http" in joinmarket/blockchaininterface.py
17:23 < cptanarchy> you helped me rescue funds out of the same wallet many months ago. lol. I really should have just started a new wallet
17:24 < cptanarchy> oh ok. I'll try that
17:24 < cptanarchy> thanks
17:24 < belcher> btw you can get the seed by doing python wallet-tool.py wallet.json showseed
17:24 < belcher> and i think it doesnt sync the wallet first (which is what fails with the ssl cert thing)
17:24 < cptanarchy> ahhhh there's the magic bullet I didn't find
17:26 < cptanarchy> is there a current donation address on github?
17:27 < belcher> should be on the README.md, the thing you see on the landing page of https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket
17:27 < cptanarchy> yeah just found it
17:27 < cptanarchy> thanks again. for saving me now for the second time
17:27 < cptanarchy> happy new year!
17:28 < belcher> ty     
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