--- Day changed Thu Feb 09 2017
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02:41 < waxwing> https://www.reddit.com/r/joinmarket/comments/5szb57/bots_with_large_numbers_of_offers_or_overlapping/
02:43 < waxwing> cross linked to bitcointalk
02:43 < waxwing> it's not as if it's some huge action right now, but need to announce it anyway.
02:44 < waxwing> also i forgot, may be worth suggesting to use cgan only, except unless there is something better than a crappy manual kick from time to time, it might not be worth discussing.
02:44 < waxwing> anyway any disagreement or commentary would be welcome on that thread
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05:06 < waxwing> https://medium.com/@laurentmt/introducing-boltzmann-85930984a159#.3b014gts2
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05:24 < Tergi> Hey all. Hopefully quick question. Decided to load windows 10 linux subsystem, installed all the needed to run joinmarket there. running windows core node as i have always (same one didnt change).
05:24 < Tergi> recovered my wallet seed on win10 linux implementation, it regen the wallet and starts adding some new addresses in.
05:25 < Tergi> finally displayed the balances, and it was short about .1 btc, so i did the gap 50 parameter
05:25 < Tergi> now its stuck in a loop of adding 240 addresses, then it exits says to rescan and next run it does the same again
05:26 < waxwing> Tergi: consider increasing this to 50: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/blob/master/joinmarket/blockchaininterface.py#L677
05:27 < waxwing> it may help, can't be sure.
05:29 < waxwing> you shouldn't need to rescan after doing it first time (if same Core instance,  you shouldn't need to rescan at all)
05:30 < Tergi> thats kinda what i figured, its just the default message that comes up, i did it anyway since i was going to bed for the night and it could just do its thing
05:30 < Tergi> now its adding 900 addresses
05:30 < waxwing> btw it's a good idea to keep the wallet.json file to avoid such problems, as it contains the index_cache (the information about the last used addresses)
05:31 < waxwing> if you recover it's harder because the code has to "find" those indexes
05:31 < waxwing> i mean, it depends how heavily used the wallet is of course
05:31 < Tergi> i still have the file, but i felt lazy :)
05:31 < Tergi> its a maker wallet
05:31 < Tergi> been running on and off for long time now
05:31 < waxwing> and once it's all found, you can use --fast from then on to make the syncing faster
05:31 < Tergi> http://pastebin.com/CyQXpa2A here is console output with debug on
05:32 < waxwing> if it's from before the 0.2 update you probably have a huge wallet, it's a pain
05:32 < waxwing> i consolidated mine after that fix
05:32 < Tergi> does it just need to keep running and adding addresses until it sorts it all out or is it just looping doing nothing?
05:32 < Tergi> its a 0.2.2 wallet. i stated right when it was release
05:33 < waxwing> it all depends on your wallet i guess. if you have huge gaps (which you may if it's from before the anti-snooping fix) then somehow you have to convince it to go forwards far enough
05:33 < waxwing> oh ok, well i don't know then, in that case it's unlikely (i hope) that you have huge gaps
05:33 < waxwing> if you see "too few addresses" keep trying, and check if the index numbers are increasing. they should be.
05:33 < Tergi> Not sure how to tell really. i know there have been times i have started it up and it loaded large number of addresses
05:35 < Tergi> is the line it puts out about too few addresses the line that shows the index? is that the blob of numbers?
05:35 < waxwing> yes     
05:36 < Tergi> oh there we go
05:36 < Tergi> looks like running it with the change to 50, allowed it to do whatever it had to do
05:36 < Tergi> next run after that gave me output i expected
05:37 < waxwing> i think it would have worked with 20, just takes more runs. quite annoying.
05:37 < Tergi> yes. about 8 more runs probably
05:37 < waxwing> the 'recover wallet' case is the one where it's annoying, generally; from now on you can use --fast and it should be reliable
05:39 < Tergi> ok. I am glad it runs on the windows 10 linux sub system it lets me finally delete this Virtual machine :)
05:40 < waxwing> sounds cool. i think :) know nothing about it apart from what i can glean from the name.
05:40 < Tergi> Just a quick run down, its in the anniversary update for windows 10, beta. they created a linux install based off ubuntu. You set it up and it creates a sudo virtual linux environment
05:41 < Tergi> runs right in a command prompt like window with bash
05:41 < Tergi> seems like it runs most anything
05:41 < Tergi> you can even apparently install x and get gui apps running. not sure how far you can push it but for command line stuff it seems really good
05:41 < Tergi> even when you have to compile code.
05:42 < Tergi> pretty much like having ubuntu inside windows
05:43 < Tergi> beats having to try and run it in windows with the windows directions, i think its a little easier
05:45 < Tergi> just have to check yeild gen and see that the callbacks work
05:49 < Tergi> i bet i could run bitcoind on the subsystem also if i wanted and then just have it all contained. should stop those little popups from the notifications when the qt sees a transaction confirm
05:50 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] AdamISZ closed pull request #706: avoid re-importing already imported addesses to bitcoind (develop...develop) https://git.io/vD4KS
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06:29 < Tergi> well, good news the notifcations back to maker work :)
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07:11 < waxwing> they came back in an hour or two today. may kick again after some time but, shrug, it's mostly pointless. (pls see 'announcement' in scrollback from earlier)
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07:15 < MaxSan> Moin
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07:19 < MaxSan> If you use patientsend and already have coins at a specific depth.. will it just send out those coins?
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07:20 < waxwing> MaxSan: the idea is to act as a maker for a while to your destination, and then switch to taker if you don't get particpation
07:20 < waxwing> but i'm a little woolly on the details, i wasn't involved in coding it, let me take a quick look
07:23 < waxwing> MaxSan: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/blob/develop/patientsendpayment.py#L262-L271
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07:23 < waxwing> note that it was updated recently, only in develop branch. what is in master branch either doesn't work or doesn't work properly, so use develop.
07:25 < MaxSan> judging by the desc it works a bit differently than what I was thinking but its fine :)
07:30 < waxwing> out of interest what were you thinking of?
07:41 < MaxSan> patientsend times out eventually and just sends... i suppose i could remove the timeout completely?
07:41 < MaxSan> to make it as a one way market maker that just cuts out when finished?
07:45 < nightcity> Hello guys, first time using joinmarket with a full node.
07:46 < nightcity> i am running the yield generator, and can  only make one make order
07:47 < nightcity> but i see at least 2 guys with lots of orders. How can i do that? Do you earn more money that way?
07:48 < MaxSan> i think its automatic
07:49 < nightcity> i read somewhere on reddit or github that i need to make more than one wallet?
07:50 < nightcity> i only generated one wallet and sent some coin to mixdept 0
07:50 < nightcity> now i am waiting for some joins.
07:52 < nightcity> if i save the seed and have a good password on the join wallet, is it safe to send all my coins there?
07:52 < MaxSan> as safe as the device is you are running from..
07:53 < MaxSan> theoretically possible for someone to plant malware on your computer and read the keys from memory
07:53 < nightcity> i have some in a paper wallet, but it would be good to earn a little bit more
07:54 < nightcity> i use lubuntu in an old netbook, its my only computer :(
07:54 < MaxSan> I cant audit your security practices am afraid
07:55 < Tergi> you would need to remove them from paper wallet cold storage and put them in the hot wallet for joinmarket 
07:55 < Tergi> there is always some risk.
07:55 < nightcity> yes, i understand....
07:55 < Tergi> you need to decide what you are comfortable with
07:56 < Tergi> I have run mine on my windows PC in a VM running debian for the last 6-9 months and no issues
07:56 < Tergi> but i take serious security precautions. Complex passwords i cannot even remember and encrypt the vm disk etc
07:57 < nightcity> the risk is on my side, or there is a possibility that the code has some bug that can let someone steal my coins without acessing my computer?
07:57 < nightcity> i know that this program is still in development...
07:57 < Tergi> Well there is always risk of bugs not just from joinmarket software but from your operating system
07:58 < MaxSan> I would say risk of accessing your coins is very unlikely, its still bitcoin at the end of the day
07:58 < Tergi> as above mentioned any malware on your computer could intercept password for your wallet and transfer it away or remotely dump private keys and steal them
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07:58 < Tergi> would be very targeted attack though
07:58 < nightcity> i use keepass to manage my passwords and have the seed saved in a pendrive and paper....
07:59 < MaxSan> can i have your address, phone number and times when your not at home also please? ;)
07:59 < Tergi> the earnings on your coins will be pretty small probably
07:59 < Tergi> market is pretty competitive it seems
08:01 < nightcity> even if i gave you my address and you find the paper or pendrive with the wallet or seed, you would still need to know the password correct?
08:02 < Tergi> not with the seed
08:02 < Tergi> seed is full recovery with only knowledge of the seed
08:02 < Tergi> if you recover from seed you have to choose a new password for the wallet
08:03 < nightcity> oh thanks, i was only used to backup the wallet.dat of bitcoin core, didnt new about that.
08:03 < Tergi> never hurts to have both :)
08:05 < nightcity> i think i will destroy the paper, and put the seed on keepass. i have a long and strong password that i can remember for that...
08:05 < Tergi> My personal opinion is that its pretty safe as long as you are not doing anything crazy. 
08:06 < Tergi> there have been lots of people using this software now for quite a while and ive not heard of anyone loosing anything
08:06 < Tergi> not to bugs in the code.
08:06 < Tergi> you can start with a small amount and work your way up as your confidence grows
08:06 < nightcity> last week i think i saw someone with more than 200 btc in the orderbook
08:06 < Tergi> yea its possible
08:07 < Tergi> i only offer at most .5
08:07 < nightcity> i have around 0.4 to try it.
08:09 < Tergi> my fee is absolute at 500 satoshi per join. used to do 1000 but things got more competitive recently.
08:09 < Tergi> i think the default fee in the config is 200
08:13 < nightcity> there is this nick now in the order book J5AbGJGBQBYPbf5k with LOTS of deals at the same time.....
08:13 < nightcity> do you win more money that way? or is he trying to clean coins from illegal business
08:15 < MaxSan> its automatic
08:15 < MaxSan> pretty sure it i
08:15 < MaxSan> is     
08:15 < Tergi> he has a custom yeild generator
08:15 < Tergi> yield generator. as far as waxwing says its probably not getting him any benefit
08:16 < nightcity> i am using yg-pe generator
08:16 < Tergi> i think to get benefits like that you would need to code your bot to use different nicks for each order so they all have a chance to get picked
08:17 < nightcity> so he opens one command line per order?
08:17 < Tergi> as far as i know there is no authentication to orders, they just get broadcast to the irc channel
08:18 < Tergi> you could probably make an order by hand if you knew all the details of the protocol
08:19 < nightcity> speaking of nicks, can you choose one?
08:19 < nightcity> *can  i choose one?
08:19 < nightcity> or is it always random?
08:19 < Tergi> I think you can
08:20 < Tergi> but its not needed or really a good idea
08:20 < Tergi> just let it be random and then you increase your privacy
08:20 < Tergi> if you are curious which one you are currently you can look in your logs directory and see what the most recent log file is it will have the nick name in it
08:23 < nightcity> nice, i found it now.
08:24 < nightcity> is there any place where we can get different generators? or do i need to know how to program for that?
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08:34 < stachrom> yes there is this special place on the internet - where you can get different generators  ;-) 
08:35 < stachrom> sec...
08:35 < stachrom> https://www.reddit.com/r/joinmarket/comments/5szb57/bots_with_large_numbers_of_offers_or_overlapping/
08:36 < stachrom> ... If you want to use a highly customised bot that does something unusual, and you want to be a good citizen, feel free to discuss it on #joinmarket on freenode (or cgan). I for one would love to see people add code to the custom scripts repo.
08:39 < stachrom> --> custom scripts repo : https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/custom-scripts but its empty ....
08:43 < stachrom> its also mentioned in the wiki : https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Running-a-Yield-Generator#modifying-the-algorithm 
08:43 < MaxSan> yg-randomizer isnt a standard one
08:43 < MaxSan> so its not empty?
08:43 < stachrom> ha - you are right.. 
08:44 < stachrom> there is one! 
08:44 < waxwing> Tergi: you can't choose your nick, no, it's verified against as a pubkey (a bit like onion hidden services)
08:45 < waxwing> you could fix it though, by setting a specific private key and persisting it
08:45 < waxwing> code doesnt do that atm
08:50 < stachrom> i am bit worried about the law - they are changing (or will soon do so) the money laundering law around europe - are there any lawyers around to keep an eye on that?  
08:52 < MaxSan> also when running a yg.. doest it just stop at a specific depth? or keep just running indefinitely?
08:58 < nightcity> maxsan, i also have the same question, i have around 0.4. will it split between depths? i think that there is 5 normally?
08:59 < nightcity> i dont really understand the docs but in the long run, it will with about 0.08 in each mix depth in my case?
09:00 < waxwing> yes it splits over time, after a large number of txs you're likely to have about the same in each "depth" (better think of them as "pockets")
09:00 < waxwing> it's unfortunately necessary; if you used only 1 pocket it would destroy the privacy effect (for you and others)
09:01 < waxwing> it seems to be a common misconception that coins "move down the depths", that is only true for the -basic yg, and only for the first set of transactions; after a while it wraps around anyway. long term it just gets spread around
09:01 < MaxSan> ohhh I didnt know that
09:01 < MaxSan> I thought it did move down
09:01 < MaxSan> I havent had any joins in a long time 
09:02 < MaxSan> I thought it was basically just running out
09:02 < MaxSan> of coins until max depth
09:02 < nightcity> i am reading more about dust now that i installed joinmarket.
09:02 < MaxSan> I have many misunderstandings heh
09:03 < nightcity> which should be the mininum fee that i should use to at least not loose money? 
09:04 < nightcity> because i know that i need to pay more fees when using more smaller addresses to send btc to someone...
09:05 < waxwing> look into changing the merge algo (see notes in config). it'll make it so that you have a smaller number of larger value utxos over time.
09:05 < MaxSan> waxwing: what do you think of that yg-randomizer ?
09:05 < waxwing> even an ultra small fee doesn't necessarily mean you get dusty outputs. the two things aren't necessarily connected.
09:06 < waxwing> MaxSan: i use that one, i think it's slightly better for privacy than yg-pe.
09:06 < nightcity> i read that, but i think i need to lower my fees to use other merges because takers will not choose me if my coins have more inputs?
09:07 < nightcity> sorry if i am not explaining well...
09:07 < waxwing> imo using a 'greedy' algo should be OK, since after a few joins it should come back more to an equilibrium, but it's tricky. i wouldn't use the 'ultra-greedy' whatever it's called, might be a bit overkill. but this is all debatable.
09:08 < nightcity> ok thanks
09:08 < waxwing> honestly i don't think joinmarket really makes much sense for small amounts < 0.5BTC or something
09:08 < waxwing> with current btc fee market
09:08 < waxwing> i mean obviously you can do joins for 0.1 or 0.05 but it starts to get very expensive
09:09 < nightcity> i only have around 0.4 in  my join wallet.... i am afraid to send my cold coins there.....
09:09 < waxwing> quite right too :)
09:10 < waxwing> i think it's OK. i've done tests with 0.02 or whatever, i just think takers are generally doing much higher numbers, because it's too expensive otherwise.
09:10 < MaxSan> so if your funding a yg do you want to send coins to many depths
09:10 < MaxSan> or many addresses in one depth
09:10 < MaxSan> or all into one address in one depth
09:11 < waxwing> MaxSan: i think there's a note on that in the wiki, send say to 3 addresses in 1 mixdepth (0) to start. not saying it's necessary, but it makes sense.
09:11 < nightcity> waxwing, do you think it is dangerous for those makers that have 200+ coins?
09:11  * waxwing should really go now
09:11 < waxwing> nightcity: maybe, hard to say
09:11 < waxwing> we seem to have a good record of not losing coins, but it's a hot wallet. plan accordingly.
09:12 < nightcity> and what about those people with alot of orders in the orderbook?
09:12 < waxwing> MaxSan: oh sorry i forgot, for yg it doesn't matter if you send to only 1 address. that's fine.
09:12 < waxwing> only for taker.
09:12 < waxwing> nightcity: i posted about it on reddit, it was linked above
09:12 < nightcity> i tried to read taker.py but i dont understand nothing :(. 
09:13 < nightcity> can you explain in simple terms how a taker selects the makers, please?
09:13 < nightcity> i read reddit, but still had doubts....
09:14 < MaxSan> ahh interesting tuff anyway
09:14 < MaxSan> am away to make some food nice chat folks
09:14 < nightcity> those users making that orders most have an objective...
09:15 < nightcity> see you
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09:59 < waxwing> hmm seems like the spammy bot came and then went of its own volition today. shrug.
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12:22 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] interestingly, they seem to have read your message. its only lots of 20 orders spambots now, but still with overlapping orders
12:22 < waxwing> heh, i thought i saw that earlier, but yeah it's getting clearer now
12:23 < waxwing> PR welcome to just ban overlaps and 20+ (the latter better to be in the config)
12:24 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] i might have some free time on my hands this weekend :)
12:24 < waxwing> it's an easy change really. the main thing is the spam. there *might* be an edge case where there's some shaving of extra value from doing it, but all i remember is not seeing it when i looked 3-6 months ago
12:24 < waxwing> bit tricky to analyze though
12:25 < waxwing> i guess the behaviour fits an economic "attacker" who does indeed perceive that it gains them something, so probably worth doing more analysis
12:25 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] wonder why you think 20 is still acceptable though? I'd probably have set a cutoff at 3 or 5
12:25 < waxwing> well yeah, i guess i was influenced by the fact that in the old days we had quite a lot of bots doing 10+, i honestly don't mind.
12:31 < waxwing> waitingfortestnetconfirmation.skeleton.jpg
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12:46 < nightcity> i checked the order book and there is alot more orders then a few hours ago, what is the person or persons trying to do?
12:47 < nightcity> do they really earn more with alot more orders almost for the same fee and quantity?
12:48 < waxwing> people want to help me make being a Taker more usable are welcome to help on https://github.com/AdamISZ/joinmarket-clientserver
12:48 < waxwing> also please don't forget that blockr over Tor no longer works; making a better version of the electrum interface, or helping belcher work on SPV stuff would be useful
12:49 < nightcity> I have asked a couple hours ago, but did not get an answer, can someone explain me in very simple terms, how are the makers selected by the takers?
12:49 < nightcity> i tried to ready the file taker.py and others, but i dont understand programmig :(
12:50 < waxwing> nightcity: only one order is placed into consideration from each maker
12:50 < waxwing> then, an algorithm which weights by price, but is random, is used to choose N from that set, where N is how many counterparties the taker wants
12:50 < nightcity> so those people are doing nothing good, stupid.lol
12:51 < waxwing> that's the default; it's also possible to manually choose orders one by one, but few if any people do that
12:51 < waxwing> nightcity: in theory, yes. what's possible is there's some edge case that gives them a *small* advantage. i looked for this some time ago, but couldn't find it.
12:51 < waxwing> don't know if you read the backlog but we were discussing this just before you asked.
12:52 < nightcity> how do i read that? i am new to irc.
12:52 < waxwing> no worries, if you weren't here at the time you won't see it
12:53 < nightcity> i am on freenode and can only scroll back till the time i logged
12:53 < nightcity> oh i see
12:53 < nightcity> is there any backup somewhere that i can read? like the waybackmachine for irc or someone?
12:54 < nightcity> it may be a very stupid question.lol
12:54 < waxwing> some channels have it, not this one unfortunately
12:56 < nightcity> so they should be using different nicks for each offer to have an advantage i suppose...
12:57 < nightcity> couldnt it be someone that as 20 or more wallets and is using one script per wallet or something?
13:01 < nightcity> i have installed for more then one day now, i found the randomizer generator this afternoon that i am using now and i havent had any join
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13:02 < nightcity> i only have a small amount in the wallet, so maybe that why...
13:12 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] there's just not much activity currently. Totally normal not to see many joins (or at all - sometimes there's several days without any)... especially in the 'lowish' amounts of coins theres not much to earn
13:13 < waxwing> yeah hence my "advertisement" above about improvements needed :)
13:21 < MaxSan> waxwing: what do you make of tumblebit?
13:21 < waxwing> i liked it enough to write this -> https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/tumblebit-for-the-tumble-curious/
13:22 < MaxSan> awesome! il take a read
13:22 < waxwing> if i had time i might play around with coding it or helping on it. well, maybe. i think it's cool.
13:22 < waxwing> it'll be really interesting to see if it takes off in some form or other. i'm really not sure.
13:48 < zxccxz> I ran yg with older version(file backup) of my wallet.json, like 50% of coins were missing, they show all with -g 3000 but seems yg still does not use those inputs that live in the future
13:50 < belcher> add -g 3000 to the arguments when you run yg
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15:12 < Tergi> Quick question if anyone has a moment, I want to just sweep all funds out of my wallet.json and re consolidate everything. To see all funds in the wallet i have to do -g 50.
15:13 < belcher> sendpayment and similar scripts also accept -g 50
15:13 < belcher> they should do anyway.. just said that from memory
15:14 < Tergi> So would appropriate flags be -g 50 -n 0 -m 0 wallet.json 0 <addr> (increment m 0 to m 1 etc...)
15:14 < belcher> yeah
15:14 < belcher> though recommend you wait until sunday night and set fees as low as possible, with today's fee market :p
15:14 < MaxSan> heh     
15:14 < MaxSan> things gone crazy today
15:15 < Tergi> True
15:15 < Tergi> I do not mind waiting if they take a while to go, its not critical
15:15 < belcher> even so iv gotten transactions of 2 sat/byte confirmed on sunday night when the 1 block confirm price was something like 90 sat/b at the time
15:16 < belcher> remember all those calculations are with 90% or 95% probability, so if you're willing to risk it you can get away with paying less
15:16 < belcher> thats the point of the fee market right? to convince us to use the block space more carefully (and to fund miners after inflation goes to zero)
15:17 < Tergi> nice
15:17 < Tergi> Yea     
15:18 < belcher> also you could use patientsendpayment and get some taker to pay you a bit while you send
15:18 < belcher> theres a newer version in the develop branch.. although even so it cant do sweeps
15:32 < Tergi> yea. patient send is an interesting idea
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