--- Day changed Fri Feb 17 2017
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03:09 < waxwing> confirmation of what i always thought (canaries are near-pointless): "There was a “gag order” that prevented us from disclosing even the existence of these warrants until now. This was also the reason why we could not update our “Canary”"
03:09 < waxwing> https://riseup.net/en/about-us/press/canary-statement
03:19 < MaxSan> isnt it sort of like a logic gate problem tho
03:19 < MaxSan> if you have a canary specifically for a type of gag order that is updated weekly and if its NOT updated then there is an issue?
03:20 < MaxSan> first mistake is jurisdiction in the US
03:24 < MaxSan> overll thought I know the feeling. Its better to have security in such a way it cant be violated in a court order
03:25 < MaxSan> code as law etc
03:40 < waxwing> gmaxwell: i responded .. but only because that bip was short enough it wasn't hard. having said that, no guarantee i've understood the details, so, meh
03:41 < waxwing> MaxSan: us jurisdiction, yeah, although that's unfortunately less clearly defined than it might be...
04:31 < waxwing> hmm PoDLEs are all the rage :) https://github.com/dedis/crypto/blob/master/proof/dleq.go#L104
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09:52 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/pull/711 (ping waxwing belcher ). I think start_cj() doesnt work to filter offers, explained in #711
09:52 < waxwing> alexcato: that's what i suggested, right?
09:54 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yup
09:54 < waxwing> it's not like i actually tried it, i just hoped that keeping state of miscreants in that class wouldn't be a problem, because it would be far better to avoid entering the data in the db to begin with.
09:54 < waxwing> so right, it seems like we have the same perspective, at least for now
09:54 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] just wanted to make sure belcher is okay with it too, before i start implementing
09:55 < waxwing> understood
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13:43 < belcher> AlexCato yes putting it on_order_seen() then..
13:48 < belcher> btw someone PM'd me about the default 150000 absurd fee rate being too low now
13:49 < belcher> i think i saw AlexCato mention it a few days ago as well, although for a lower value
13:57 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yes, i was wrong back then, it's indeed 150k
13:58 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] and it gets hit often lately, at least for the target block confirmation estimates lower than 3
14:10 < gmaxwell> waxwing: thanks.
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14:22 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] do you still want the offer-IDs to be able to be outside of the range [0;max-1] ? Because that needs more complexity and additional DB-lookups, for no upside that i can see. (belcher, waxwing)
14:23 < belcher> does it really need another DB lookup? you cant use COUNT
14:23 < belcher> if it really is that complex then no need
14:23 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] in on_order_seen() i only get to work with one offer at a time
14:23 < belcher> ah ok
14:23 < belcher> good point yes
14:24 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] alright, i'll start with the simpler solution then
14:41 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] AlexCato opened pull request #712: takers: ignore makers with more than max_offers_allowed offers (develop...maker_offer_checks) https://git.io/vDQ7g
14:42 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] AlexCato closed pull request #711: Takers: filter out makers with many offers (develop...limit_maker_max_offers) https://git.io/vDrf6
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15:16 < SmoothWalzter> I have a question: is there any market makers out there selling shares of their operation?
15:17 < belcher> if you're happy to trust them, im sure plenty would sell you some contract ;)
15:21 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] what would be their incentive to sell shares?
15:21 < SmoothWalzter> The incentive would be more liquidity, more bitcoin. From what I understand, the larger the offering amount, the better
15:22 < SmoothWalzter> As an investor in someone's operation, I would of course be paying them a cut of the proceeds
15:23 < SmoothWalzter> It would be nice for JoinMarket to have something like a DAO, or smart contract running where people can just send investment coins to 
15:23 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] hm... from my anecdotal experience: doesnt seem to hold true. The odd 10+ btc joins happen very, very rarely and offer nearly no return
15:24 < SmoothWalzter> Ok, so you're saying that being a market maker isn't that profitable?
15:24 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] true, automated and enforced by code, there might be some upside to this. As it is now, the risk is in no relation to the needed trust imho
15:24 < belcher> the profitability depends on the amount you have
15:25 < belcher> but i cant see it not requiring trust, given that it would always be easy to get 'hacked'
15:25 < belcher> trust doesnt have to be a bad thing, just that it might not be compatible with anonymity
15:26 < SmoothWalzter> I know getting hacked is an issue
15:27 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] it's profitable, but not *very* profitable. If you need to trust an operation with lending funds, poloniex or bitfinex have higher ROIs than JM can offer
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15:37 < belcher> AlexCato what rate of return do you get?
15:38 < belcher> iv been getting about 2% lately which is comparable to lending on those sites.. others have said they got 3-4%, which is not that common admittedly
15:38 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] last year was awesome, this year so far i get like 1 join/day for 500 satoshi :)
15:40 < belcher> interesting
15:40 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] running a history now, might take a while
15:41 < SmoothWalzter> I know right now Bitfinex is offering like 20%
15:41 < SmoothWalzter> actually, more like 15% actually
15:41 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] nah, its back down again. They're at 0.015 - 0.02% again
15:41 < belcher> thats far higher than what i ever calculated it to be to..
15:41 < belcher> sec     
15:41 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] was nice for a week at 0.1%/day
15:41 < belcher> then again maybe it went up because of their hack
15:42 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] all the lending rates, for both usd and btc, are down to pre-hack levels
15:42 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] usd even lower than before
15:43 < belcher> hey wheres that site with the lending rates... cant find it anymore
15:43 < belcher> wait found it
15:43 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] continuously compounded equivalent annual interest rate = 3.1304939741 %
15:43 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] that includes the awesome last year though
15:43 < belcher> yeah
15:44 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] this year is < 0.01% i guess
15:44 < belcher> so 0.03% per day on bitfinex for bitcoin, that is 11% apparently..
15:44 < belcher> ok     
15:44 < belcher> so     
15:45 < SmoothWalzter> 11% is more realistic, because there are periods when orders don't get filled properly
15:45 < SmoothWalzter> I was going by the FRR%
15:45 < belcher> i just worked out (1 + 0.0003 * 30)**12
15:45 < belcher> 30 days of, compounded for 12 months
15:46 < belcher> okay so its about an order of magnitude higher
15:47 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] heard poloniex has even higher rates, but dont have an account to check
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16:30 < SmoothWalzter> Bitfinex rates are much better than Poloniex. It's not even close
16:31 < SmoothWalzter> Poloniex's Bitcoin orderbook dried up the other day
16:31 < belcher> SmoothWalzter is there a reason you cant run a yield generator yourself?
16:31 < SmoothWalzter> At one point there was more demand for MAID than for BTC
16:32 < SmoothWalzter> belcher it's a pain to keep the computer running 24/7
16:32 < belcher> it doesnt have to be your main computer it can be some cheap old laptop you get
16:33 < belcher> but yeah i get it costs electricity and so on
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