--- Day changed Sun Mar 12 2017 00:57 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24 -!- shinobimonkey [~vagabond@static-68-235-53-251.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29 -!- shinobimonkey [~vagabond@static-68-235-53-251.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #joinmarket 01:37 -!- shinobimonkey [~vagabond@static-68-235-53-251.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:40 -!- shinobimonkey [~vagabond@static-68-235-53-251.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #joinmarket 04:37 -!- coins123 [~coins123@31.157.95.37] has joined #joinmarket 04:37 -!- coins123 [~coins123@31.157.95.37] has quit [Changing host] 04:37 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 04:56 < belcher> wow look at all the cheap txes that got mined https://anduck.net/bitcoin/fees/ 04:56 < belcher> less than 17 sat/b, in those huge red/orange blocks 06:15 < waxwing> belcher: have you tried the echo -r thing out? does that not still have the bash history problem then? 06:15 < belcher> it does, that whole line is added to .bash_history :p 06:15 < belcher> i only used that because it was testnet privkeys 06:16 < waxwing> ok. so what's the right solution? something like you do with asymmetric key based logins like with ssh-config etc. ? 06:16 < waxwing> i dunno there's probably a fairly simple way somewhere 06:17 < belcher> i think the status quo is fine 06:17 < waxwing> yeah but there are real non-interactive use-cases 06:18 < belcher> for using it in scripts.. id say just get a secure server and be mindful about .bash_history in that case 06:18 < belcher> since scripts cant use encryption passphrases or anything, unless they put the passphrase in the script file 06:18 < waxwing> i've never really thought about this before. i guess the basic idea is to read a secret from file into memory and then wipe it. 06:19 < belcher> also any memory in ram might be stored on hard disk in the swap file temporarily 06:19 < belcher> if someone has access to your hardware they can always get your privkeys, but avoiding the .bash_history thing is useless against less skilled thieves 06:25 < Anduck> belcher: yeah i noticed too. pretty interesting fee level drop 06:26 < Anduck> btw, i guess scripts can use "real stdin" by using < last weekend no transactions got mined cheaper than about 100sat/b, this weekend its less than 17sat/b as above 06:27 < Anduck> i guess something like cat < last weekend had that big price runup so maybe it was that 06:27 < Anduck> then just feed whatever is wanted into stdin and stop with EOF 06:27 < Anduck> this way bash history is not saved *i think*. requires testing though 06:28 < belcher> where do you put the sensitive info like privkeys in your example Anduck ? 06:28 < Anduck> after the command 06:28 < Anduck> found an example from stackoverflow: 06:28 < Anduck> $ cat < foo 06:28 < Anduck> bar 06:28 < Anduck> baz 06:28 < Anduck> EOF 06:29 < Anduck> it waits for EOF. you can simulate it with ctrl+d 06:29 < Anduck> well "simulate", i mean do EOF 06:40 < waxwing> well but we already have a way to enter a passphrase interactively; the question would be how could it be done non-interactively but still relatively secure. 06:43 < belcher> one ideas is have the password in a file in /dev/shm/ and read from there, then delete it after 06:44 < waxwing> the thing about swap is relevant, but i'm more interested in the basic concept, which i think must be to have it in a protected file, read, use, wipe and repeat. 06:45 < waxwing> (if not repeatable i guess no point) 06:50 < waxwing> hmm repeatable != automatable. well, similar anyway. 06:53 < belcher> kristov atlas is saying on twitter that coinjoin has failed 06:53 < belcher> https://twitter.com/kristovatlas/status/840627541723512834 06:54 < waxwing> shrug 06:54 < belcher> bad choice of words at the very least :p 07:41 < Anduck> https://anduck.net/bitcoin/fees/vinvout_144blocks.png some nice output consuming! 07:42 < belcher> businesses are using the cheap block space at the weekends to combine all their UTXOs 07:42 < belcher> remember businesses get paid in small amounts and have to combine up all those outputs, which results in large transactions 07:42 < Anduck> the electrum plugin is what i think would boost joinmarket usage a lot 07:43 < waxwing> Anduck: i recently got an email from someone saying he's using it, and made a donation even 07:43 < Anduck> belcher: yeah i thought that's likely what's happening 07:43 < waxwing> but i'm reworking it now 07:43 < Anduck> cool! 07:43 < waxwing> now *clientserver update is fairly stable, and now we have electrum 2.8 with testnet it's the right time 07:43 < waxwing> but of course they ripped the guts out for segwit, so it takes a bit of work on that level 07:43 < waxwing> well, segwit *and* testnet 07:44 < Anduck> whoa, they removed segwit stuff for testnet? 07:44 < Anduck> in electrum 07:44 < waxwing> no, they added testnet and segwit, both obv mean some big changes 07:44 < waxwing> at lib/bitcoin.py and transaction.py level 07:44 < waxwing> and wallet a bit of course 07:46 < Anduck> yeah 08:36 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 08:38 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 08:59 < belcher> https://anduck.net/bitcoin/fees/ says 100sat/b is plenty but https://bitcoinfees.github.io/ says 170sat/b for 1 block confirm 09:00 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] just had a 60 sat/b confirm within 1 block. Mempool is nearly empty, these predictors seem to weigh too heavily on the past 09:37 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] usually https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC is closest to what happens in reality from my observation 09:37 < belcher> yeah im thinking the whole idea of fee estimation might be a bit flawed 09:38 < belcher> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/issues/715 09:38 < belcher> Fee estimation can't possibly work as well as the simple increasing fees approach, because they're using past information instead of current information. 09:40 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] even the core 25-target-block-estimator says 135 sat/b ... 25 blocks! Insanely far off 09:41 < belcher> i think core's also does 2x or 3x to be sure 09:41 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] well, the go-to answer for "my tx is stuck" always used to be "use a better wallet". I kind of agree with you that estimation is really hard and cannot be solved for good user experience 09:41 < belcher> read that issue above 09:41 < belcher> estimation is part of the solution but the RBF fee increasing that bram cohen writes about is good too 09:42 < belcher> ill be posting a thread about it tomorrow on r/bitcoin to spread the idea more, since when it came out there wasnt many comments about it 09:42 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yeah, i've seen it. This works nicely for TXses which dont need to happen quickly (start low and increase). Totally sucks if you have to make a payment within a certain timeframe 09:43 < belcher> for quick payment within a certain timeframe id say use the estimation algorithms and look at the existing mempool 09:43 < belcher> and choose something that jumps the queue 09:44 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] i can do that. I cant teach that to 95% of my friends who'd try bitcoin 09:44 < belcher> by "certain timeframe" you mean 1-2 blocks right? if you can wait more then the fee increasing thing works 09:44 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] and since its so complicated for the normal user anyways, i get one shot at convincing them 09:44 < belcher> what do your friends get out of using bitcoin? 09:44 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] yup, i buy must of my digital goods with bitcoin; some of them need a payment confirmation within a timeframe 09:45 < belcher> thats how i think about it, if bitcoin is useful to them they'll tolerate some annoying stuff like unpredictable fees 09:45 < belcher> mmm 09:45 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] i have a few who are really hackery-paranoid about privacy. Bitcoin is awesome for online payments 09:45 < belcher> i noticed recently steam allows you buy steam credits for games too, then you can send a slow cheap tx that confirms overnight 09:46 < belcher> earlier you had to send a fast expensive tx for pay for an individual game 09:47 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] but for them, the volatility is already a factor which conservative types dont really like. Then also having unpredictable confirmation times (or horrendous fees if you want to make sure its within 3 blocks or so) just adds too much to win over their inertia 09:47 < belcher> yep, volatility is a downside for sure 09:47 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] steam directly usually is waaaay more expensive than going keystore->steamkey 09:47 < belcher> whats keystore? 09:48 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] there's many which accept bitcoin, let me check my bookmarks 09:50 < pigeons> opskins.com lootmarker.com 09:50 < pigeons> lootmarket i mean 09:51 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] mmoga.de gameladen.com bit-keys.com . Also there's steam-key-searchengines which search over several shops. About 1/3 to 1/4th of them accept bitcoin 09:51 < pigeons> dispenser.tf 09:52 < JM-IRCRelay> [AlexCato] oh, what *is* keystore. Its just some website selling steam game keys, which you can then enter into steam to use the game just as if you bought from there directly 10:04 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has joined #joinmarket 10:17 < belcher> right ok 11:07 < akrmn> waxwing: The amount distribution issue you raised was unclear whether needed. It depends on what you mean by restore session, restore the fractions or restore the absolute amount of coins. If the user doesn't do anything else to the wallet between running the same session file, then it should be the same 11:08 < waxwing> akrmn: no, like say there are 4 txs in a mixdepth (final is sweep), and say quit after the second. the amount fraction for the third might be '0.05', now you're going to do 0.05 of what is *left* in that mixdepth, not what was there at the start. 11:09 < waxwing> because of the specific code that i linked in the comment. it sets the mixdepth amount at the start, and leaves it unchanged as you go through the txes for that mixdepth. 11:09 -!- Numin0us [~Numin0us@unaffiliated/numin0us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09 < waxwing> if you restart, it gets reset to the new remaining total, which is less than you had at the start of th mixdepth. 11:10 < akrmn> oh ok will look at that 11:17 < zxccxz> see https://bitcoinfees.21.co/ more optimistic that'd save you more fees 11:19 < akrmn> ya I'll just save balance_by_mixdepth in the session file as well 11:19 < waxwing> akrmn: yeah that can work; can update at the start of each mixdepth i guess 11:24 < akrmn> can also give warning at start if there's inconsistency, but not really needed 11:25 < waxwing> akrmn: btw i do really think that regexp parsing is not helpful; dumps to a python object and update, it's much cleaner. 11:26 < waxwing> or loads rather, i always get those 2 confused 11:34 < akrmn> ya there's some things I can simplify in the code, but maybe we can just get this last part done today, pay for most of it, then from the last bit left, I can polish everything up? :) 11:34 < akrmn> I think 0.7 is good for me for now, and then 0.18 in the next few days 11:35 < waxwing> i think the amount distn thing, the wallet thing we can leave, but i'd prefer to hear from either the original guy (eduard) or at least one other person that it's usable. 11:35 < akrmn> o ya and I can also add something that checks the wallet to see if it changed even one bit between sessions, that would be more secure, instead of checking consistency of balances 11:36 < waxwing> let's give it a few more days, if that guy still doesn't answer (seems to have disappeared) then i'll just send the rest to you, based on no response and basically all done as requested. 11:36 < waxwing> i wouldn't be happy to merge as-is really, some little details, but you don't need to be so concerned about that. 11:38 < waxwing> it's a great pain to me to be dealing with this, i've already done all this in the *clientserver codebase (and it's in the gui too, although it *also* needs some independent testers) 11:45 < belcher> Taek check pm ? 12:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 12:18 < waxwing> huh electrum 2.8 is a bit of a beast, finally got my first testnet join through with the plugin: https://www.blocktrail.com/tBTC/tx/f60aa183cc01098b4f6033f86369c4c7865d17b5890cf6003120d93e471af3da 12:19 < waxwing> electrum's txdetails dialog is cool with the colour coding stuff 12:20 < belcher> nice 12:21 < waxwing> unfortunately i don't think regtest is going to be an option without somehow setting up electrumX. i'd guess it's either undoable or a big pain. 12:26 < belcher> just skip it if its too hard 12:27 < waxwing> yeah, it just accelerates testing a lot. the pre-existing plugin was based on tests only on mainnet, a bit too #yolo :) 12:29 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@106.red-83-61-222.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:07 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 13:09 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #joinmarket 13:54 < grubles> is there a tumblebit channel? 13:55 < belcher> they have a slack 13:55 < waxwing> grubles: i think slack only unfortunately, but you can connect over irc 13:55 < grubles> blargh 13:55 < waxwing> well, nothing stopping people chatting on #tumblebit here though 13:56 < grubles> i was surprised no one was in #tumblebit 13:56 < waxwing> i'm connected to tumblebit and bitcoincore slacks via irc here, but i also would much rather prefer people didn't use it, but meh, what can you do 13:58 -!- emzy [~quassel@unaffiliated/emzy] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:58 < belcher> im the same, thankfully theres the irc bridge 13:59 -!- emzy [~quassel@raspberry.emzy.de] has joined #joinmarket 14:00 -!- emzy [~quassel@raspberry.emzy.de] has quit [Changing host] 14:00 -!- emzy [~quassel@unaffiliated/emzy] has joined #joinmarket 14:12 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@106.red-83-61-222.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #joinmarket 14:24 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 14:42 < grubles> ah so we just need to get a bridge bot in #tumblebit then 14:54 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 14:57 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01 -!- stachrom [d4338865@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.51.136.101] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:01 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 16:02 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #joinmarket 16:02 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30 < akrmn> I think it should work now. There's one issue for my current test (not sure if reproducible) where it wants to sweep, but len(utxos)=0 for some reason. Will check tomorrow. But basically, was hoping to get paid most of it tomorrow so I can finally do the bank transfer for my rent... I think we already waiting enough time for eduard6 (16 days), but it's your call. 17:30 < akrmn> *waited 18:20 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34 -!- HostFat_ [~HostFat@host155-242-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 19:37 -!- HostFat__ [~HostFat@host30-241-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:38 -!- owowo [~ovovo@unaffiliated/ovovo] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:44 -!- owowo [~ovovo@unaffiliated/ovovo] has joined #joinmarket 20:05 -!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10 -!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #joinmarket 23:35 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [] 23:39 -!- sushimania [27072f1b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.7.47.27] has joined #joinmarket 23:43 -!- sushimania [27072f1b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.7.47.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]