--- Day changed Sun Apr 09 2017 00:03 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has joined #joinmarket 00:07 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has joined #joinmarket 01:26 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has joined #joinmarket 01:33 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 01:47 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50 -!- ^arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #joinmarket 08:03 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:08 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 08:18 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 08:41 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 08:58 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 09:02 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:36 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 09:41 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:41 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 10:02 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 10:10 < arubi> waxwing, if you don't mind, got time for a couple questions re. your coinswap? 10:11 < waxwing> arubi: sure thanks 10:11 < arubi> 1. might be reading this wrong, on the table, TX4 pays to alice, and is sent signed by Carol to Alice, but on the right diagram below, TX4 pays to Carol, am I confused? 10:11 < arubi> s/right/left 10:11 < waxwing> ok that's probably an error, let me check 10:13 < waxwing> yeah i guess the table's wrong, alice's coins should end up with carol ofc :) 10:13 < arubi> okay :), 2. are TX0 and TX1 related in any way? can one be re-orged out without the other being reorged? 10:13 < waxwing> yeah reorgs i don't think it can handle. 10:14 < arubi> that's probably breaking it then 10:14 < waxwing> i only vaguely considered that, is there any way to avoid it? 10:14 < arubi> unless TX0 + TX1 are the same tx 10:14 < arubi> and we require Alice two distinct ephemeral keys for two outputs of 2-2 with carol? one might actually Bob 10:14 < waxwing> is there really a way to set up such a construction that defends against a deep reorg? 10:15 < arubi> well if the first one is the same, it can only fail it "never happened" 10:15 < arubi> or, "let's continue" I guess :) 10:15 < waxwing> hmm it's a good point to think further on. the original setup was also 2 separate transactions. but, with timeouts on those specifically. 10:16 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:16 < arubi> right, probably to account for a short re-org 10:16 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 10:16 < waxwing> well even ignoring reorgs, those timeouts were needed in case of non-response. 10:17 < waxwing> short reorg is handled by just waiting right. 10:17 < arubi> yea, but back then CSV wasn't available 10:17 < arubi> just set up the transaction, clock starts as it confirms. my bonus question was why use CTLV 10:18 < waxwing> CSV is another thing, after i wrote that diagram was 'i really should have thought about csv'. i just put in cltv because i'd already looked at it. 10:18 < waxwing> yeah snap 10:18 < waxwing> that Q i anticipate, i'm sure it's better. 10:18 < arubi> right, it makes things very "urgent", but also has to be because tx0 and tx1 are different 10:18 < waxwing> but hmm we have to make tx0 and tx1 isolated due to privacy 10:18 < arubi> so in case one goes a lot before the other, maybe get the time to regret because the scripts are "ruined" 10:19 < waxwing> no point having them in the same tx 10:19 < arubi> but you exchange txids right at the beginning? 10:19 < waxwing> yeah but on the blockchain, they must be unconnected. 10:19 < arubi> hmm 10:19 < arubi> I see, didn't consider that as a requirement 10:20 < waxwing> the high level goal is to receive coins unconnected from the starting coins 10:20 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21 < arubi> okay, I have just until wednesday to be on vacation. endomorphism is done, going to look at this now :) 10:21 < waxwing> cool thanks. 10:21 < waxwing> did you do endomorphism in bc? 10:21 < arubi> yep! 10:21 < waxwing> :) 10:22 < arubi> http://paste.debian.net/hidden/9e22d74a/ 10:22 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 10:23 < arubi> should generally work for all compatible curves, I didn't check other ones yet 10:27 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 10:34 < waxwing> updated to correct http://imgur.com/a/iXXdF 10:35 < waxwing> crappy quality from pdf to img, meh, can't be bothered uploading pdf 10:35 < arubi> cheers 10:43 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@62.90-149-73.nextgentel.com] has joined #joinmarket 10:45 < waxwing> i'll write out my notes on backing out at each step then, i was gonna do that yesterday and then forgot. 10:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 11:13 < waxwing> not the best format ever, but here: https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/350bb4038834019eb0c06ec69446aec9 11:15 < arubi> cool, I'm setting some things up for "easy" testing 11:16 < arubi> really core should merge ethereum "reverse blockchain" feature, it'll help in regtest stuff 11:16 < gmaxwell> arubi: what does that mean? 11:17 < arubi> joking, if I could try two paths of a script by rolling back the chain on regtest :) 11:17 < gmaxwell> arubi: you can do that, undocumented RPC 'invalidateblock' 11:18 < gmaxwell> and it's complement is reconsiderblock 11:18 < arubi> \o/, which version is that in? I have a beaten down 0.13.1 with bip114 for these things 11:18 < gmaxwell> it's there for testing (and the tests use it) and emergencies. 11:18 < waxwing> i'm looking for the 'reverse-hash-function' feature :) 11:19 < gmaxwell> it's been around sine whenever we discovered the OpenSSL x86_64 vs x86 der parsing inconsistency.. maybe 0.11.2 or 0.12? 11:19 < arubi> cool. will give it a go 11:20 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:20 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 11:29 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 11:30 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@62.90-149-73.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:40 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:40 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 11:53 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:53 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 11:55 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.93.182.171] has joined #joinmarket 12:06 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 12:09 -!- FASDFSF [~FASDFSF@unaffiliated/fasdfsf] has joined #joinmarket 12:14 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:22 < belcher> it would help if used more meaningful names for those transactions, names borrowed from LN could work 'funding tx' 'refund tx' 'unilateral ending tx' and 'bilaterial ending tx' 12:27 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@62.90-149-73.nextgentel.com] has joined #joinmarket 12:29 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 12:30 < waxwing> yes, good point. i started from coinswap orig. diagram and iterated. but yeah 0,1 could be 'funding', 2,3 could be 'backout' 4,5 could be 'receiving' 12:30 < waxwing> for example 12:31 < waxwing> i mean technically there are 2 more (possible) txs since if you backout via TX2, you then also spend out of the output of TX2. 12:31 < arubi> yes, there's nothing else for you to spend really 12:32 < waxwing> maybe 'refund' is more standard than 'backout', dunno 12:34 < arubi> depends on the context I guess, both are okay terms for this imo 12:36 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.93.182.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@62.90-149-73.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:59 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 13:03 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 13:04 -!- MaxSan [~one@194.187.251.163] has joined #joinmarket 13:19 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 13:22 < belcher> thinking of tweeting "joinmarket developers supports segwit + UASF + BIP148 + killing covert asicboost" 13:22 < belcher> its a bit strange to speak in the name of "joinmarket developers" but everyone else seems to be doing it so.. 13:23 < waxwing> belcher: sure, i'd be fine with that/retweet it, since i'm the same. but 'disabling' rather than 'killing', no need for emotive language i think. 13:23 < belcher> good point 13:23 < MaxSan> yeah 13:23 < waxwing> some people might say 'don't pick sides', but tbh i see this as an existential threat to the system. 13:24 < MaxSan> Totally agree happy to see people step up when needed though 13:24 < belcher> working on joinmarket is already picking sides 13:24 < belcher> we could've put our open source interest to use in coding some other thing, but we didnt 13:25 < belcher> theres no such thing as non-political, politics is everywhere 13:25 < waxwing> in some other kind of controversy, i think not picking sides could for sure be reasonable. i don't mean you're not allowed to, i mean it could be reasonable to deliberately set your opinions to one side. 13:25 < MaxSan> Its good to reduce it where possible though in my opinion 13:25 < MaxSan> politics that is ^^ 13:26 < belcher> yeah, its often good to keep quiet so people cant work together who disagree 13:26 < MaxSan> these coins with giving politics a route into the way things happen is asking for problems when/if they get large enough to matter 13:26 < belcher> u/chuckymcgee made the joinmarket icon and wrote some of the subreddit CSS and he's a rbtc'er 13:28 < belcher> if id constantly talked about how great core is he would've been annoyed and probably never made the icon 13:28 < belcher> but at times like this you have to take a side, anyway its well known what my views are just by reading my post history 13:28 < waxwing> right, exactly. raedah was also anti-Core. doesnt' mean you can't work together. it's a judgement call really. 13:29 < belcher> very few people completely agree on everything :) you get more things done by being tolerant and pluralistic 13:38 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 13:54 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 14:01 < belcher> https://twitter.com/joinmarket/status/851177740900368385 14:01 < belcher> for anyone who wants to retweet 14:08 -!- FASDFSF [~FASDFSF@unaffiliated/fasdfsf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:39 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 14:54 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 15:10 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 15:21 -!- MaxSan [~one@194.187.251.163] has quit [Ping 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viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 16:41 < adlai> urgh 16:41 < adlai> how about replying to your own tweet with "Correction: *MOST* JoinMarket developers ..." 16:42 < adlai> also, i think it's downright unhelpful to lump all these issues together 16:42 < adlai> reeks of the same bipartisan control-theatre that got drumf nose deep in swampgas 16:43 < belcher> which issues dont you agree with? 16:44 < adlai> while i may agree with any individual issue when presented against the alternative of "hand over development to a gaggle of populist boneheads", i disagree with the partisan presentation 16:45 < adlai> "core vs the world" is a ~false~ dichotomy, and presenting it as a true one lowers the level of discussion to roughly the same as the US political circus 16:46 < adlai> the payoff matrix for bitcoin is way more complicated than what the dichotomy presentation suggests 16:46 < belcher> its not me presenting it, the divide between the two coalitions is a fact right now 16:47 < belcher> not to mention that tweet only talked about supporting those issues it supports, it doesnt mention pro-core or against core 16:47 < adlai> the fact that ISIS wants to overthrow Assad, and that Assad wants to squash ISIS, shouldn't prevent you from joining the kurds, or just camping in a dead end and shooting any arms bearer who enters unannounced 16:48 < adlai> sure, i'll give it that. it's at least better to make positive statements of support than blanket attacks 16:49 < adlai> but, for example, "UASF" aiui (and i've not read enough reddit/twitter/etc to know how ~others~ understand it) boils down to "we'll make a nonconsensus hardfork and hope the economic majority is on our side" 16:49 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:49 < adlai> there's a good chance that most people who think it's a good idea don't understand this 16:49 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 16:50 < belcher> UASF is by definition a soft-fork not a hard fork, and it requires the economic majority to support it 16:50 < adlai> how do you measure economic majority support? 16:50 < belcher> if you can think of a third coalition like the kurds or the turkmens then let us know, im not aware of any in bitcoin 16:51 < adlai> a soft-fork which is unsupported by any nontrivial amount of mining power is ripe for a chain split once an unsupporting miner produces an invalid block 16:51 < adlai> my preferred third party is "bitcoin isn't broken, let the coffeecoin idiots hype themselves onto the next big thing, and good riddance to them" 16:52 < belcher> have you read about the asicboost thing? 16:52 < adlai> they're welcome to return once microtransaction layers are operational 16:52 < belcher> thats a strong case that bitcoin actually is broken today 16:52 < adlai> i've read gmaxwell's post (and some replies, including bitmain's) 16:54 < adlai> hmm, where's that one tweet... "Secret mining advantage is expected. The problem is incentive to oppose incompatible upgrades for secret reasons." - https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/849800229696045058 16:54 < belcher> okay, so is your point of view is your dont care about upgrades 16:54 < belcher> ? 16:55 < adlai> upgrades are important, but i'm allergic to politics, and most/all bitcoin conversations these days are too politicized for my taste 16:56 < belcher> politization happens whenever there is an inherent conflict, like on-chain scaling has the scale/decentralization tradeoff 16:56 < adlai> as a thought experiment - had covert asicboost been openly deployed in publicly available mining hardware (and worked on more than one pool), would segwit design have been delayed to accomodate this? 16:56 < belcher> and this asicboost results in bitmain vs others tradeoff 16:57 < belcher> yes it would have, gmaxwell said they took care to not make any mining soft incompatible 16:57 < belcher> though im not sure its possible with asicboost 16:57 < adlai> well i do believe that bitmain should be called on their bullshit, either they run covert ASICBOOST, or they should have no problem making it less efficient 16:57 < adlai> my impression was that accomodating covert asicboost would be significantly more difficult 16:58 -!- MaxSan1 [~one@46.166.165.225] has joined #joinmarket 16:58 < adlai> otoh, i also think that bitmain filing a patent on it is fair grounds for swapping the hash algo out from under bitmain's feet, so... :P 16:59 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59 < adlai> preferably to an algorithm with input blocks equal to or longer than the block headers >_< 17:00 < belcher> yes iv heard people argue that, it seems that since UASF is a soft fork then its preferable 17:00 < adlai> waxwing: is there a text description to go with your coinswap diagram? 17:00 < belcher> a PoW hard fork requires lightweight wallets to update as well, and anyone who doesnt update stays on the old chain 17:00 < adlai> (other than, i guess, all the scrollback) 17:01 < adlai> right, but a UASF could result in light wallets on the "wrong" chain, if hashpower lies about which chain it will mine pre-split 17:02 < adlai> anyway, no offense intended, but i'd rather read the coinswap discussion than split hairs over where community outreach ends and politics begins 17:02 < adlai> i think we're close enough to being in the same camp that we can leave some hair splitting for a rainier day :) 17:03 < belcher> sure 17:15 < belcher> waxwing so it looks like the thing you've changed is the redeem script on the non-cooperative case, it is now hashlock OR timelock 17:15 < belcher> so if they do your attack where its broadcasted before X is revealed, alice can get her money back after the timelock time 17:17 < belcher> adlai did you see this? https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/350bb4038834019eb0c06ec69446aec9 17:18 < belcher> it analyzes each case 17:18 < belcher> but it doesnt describe the whole scheme as you say 17:19 < adlai> belcher: thanks, i missed that. 17:22 < belcher> waxwing could you edit your gist to explain whats the difference between the numbers (1) (2) and letters (a) (b) (c) 17:28 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:28 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 17:28 < adlai> what's the difference between A_2-2-BC and A_2-2-CB ? 17:29 < belcher> i cant see why they'd be anything other than identical 17:29 < adlai> same, just confirming 17:30 < belcher> wait no, this scheme doesnt have bob 17:30 < belcher> B means something else 17:30 -!- MaxSan1 [~one@46.166.165.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:31 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.166.165.225] has joined #joinmarket 17:31 * adlai doesn't quite understand the superscripty A_2-2-AC' either 17:32 < adlai> in the transaction graph at the end, it looks as though they're all 2of2 addresses between alice and carol, using different keys in each one 17:32 < adlai> sorry, not quite - two pairs. 17:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 18:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:12 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 18:26 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 18:39 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.166.165.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 18:52 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 18:53 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.166.165.225] has joined #joinmarket 19:09 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:12 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 19:22 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #joinmarket 20:27 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 21:02 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:08 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 21:34 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:51 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 22:04 -!- juscamarena [~justin@47.148.176.74] has joined #joinmarket 22:42 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [] 22:58 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:59 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 23:03 < waxwing> adlai: the superscript is actually a comma :) 23:04 < waxwing> the address names come from old notes, it's not helpful as-is. it should have been "Addr(2-2-Alice-Carol)" and "Addr(2-2-Carol-Bob)" (with of course the understanding that alice is acting as bob here, so shouldn't have put B anywhere, it's confusing) 23:05 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:05 -!- viasil [~viasil@198.12.75.25] has joined #joinmarket 23:20 < waxwing> as for description in text of what's happening, i thought maybe the sequence of steps on the top table/diagram would be enough, combined with the diagram at the bottom, if you'd already read the main coinswap description, so that you understand what we're trying to do. 23:20 < waxwing> thanks for taking a look 23:26 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 23:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #joinmarket 23:45 -!- a87ry5_ [~a87ry5@38.132.120.4] has joined #joinmarket 23:47 -!- a87ry5 [~a87ry5@cpe-158-222-195-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]