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08:38 < JM-IRCRelay> [J54YBQmLnf7WvRVf] !reloffer 0 7500000 159972700 1000 0.0002 ~
08:43 < waxwing> heh
08:48 < MaxSan> oO
08:48 < MaxSan> those are relayed here
08:48 < waxwing> he just omitted the -pit part
08:51 < zxccxz> he's not a bot!
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13:31 < belcher> wimpy scared bitcoin users https://www.reddit.com/r/joinmarket/comments/66c421/bitcoin_intelligence_drives_new_demand_for/dgj1h81/?context=2
13:31 < belcher> "should i ask permission from coinbase whether i can use joinmarket?"
13:31 < belcher> aww
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14:08 < fluffypony> Yes they should
14:09 < fluffypony> They should ask permission from the coinbase tx
14:32 < belcher> waxwing although it's clearly written in your gist, I didn't realize until right now that you proposed folding both (TX_0/TX_2) transactions into one :p
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15:42 < MaxSan> is potentially earned metric written in satoshis?
15:49 < belcher> yyes
16:30 < MaxSan> thought so
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17:42 < belcher> waxwing now that iv realized your scheme involves combining TX_0 and TX_2, CLTV makes more sense than CSV, since CSV starts ticking from when the actual refund itself is confirmed which doesnt make sense
17:43 < belcher> i wonder if theres a way to make the script be Carol + knowledge of X + NOT CLTV
17:43 < belcher> so after the timeout, carol cannot use X to take the money, that would mean the coin becomes Alice's and she doesnt have to move it straight away
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22:37 < waxwing> got a positive review here for the joinmarket-clientserver code: https://github.com/AdamISZ/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/19#issuecomment-296041879
22:38 < waxwing> maybe some other people might find it helpful. note it also has a gui.
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22:38 < waxwing> belcher: re CLTV/CSV, i think you're right, arubi_ said the same thing i think
22:39 < waxwing> as fo r"NOT CLTV", that is interesting, i have a feeling people have asked that before and it's not possible for some reason. could be wrong, worth checking.
22:39 < arubi_> I actually said no to cltv and yes to csv, I'm rethinking..
22:39 -!- arubi_ is now known as arubi
22:40 < waxwing> arubi: you said that, but then i thought you changed your mind, or were at least having a rethink.
22:41 < arubi> well, the the thing about cltv is the absolute time right, and because tx2\tx4 are not dependent on each other, I tried to think what would a re-org cause
22:41 < arubi> so now combining tx2 and tx4 into one transaction seems more durable.. but still need to go over it more
22:42 < waxwing> hmm, that's a thought.
22:42 < waxwing> but no the idea of TX4 is to not have any trace of coinswap in its redeeming script.
22:43 < arubi> err not tx2 \ tx4
22:43 < waxwing> TX2/TX3 you mean?
22:43 < arubi> sorry, those are dependent. yes ^
22:43 < arubi> just woke up :)
22:43 < waxwing> sure me too :)
22:43 < waxwing> i think, TX2 and 3 have to be 2 transactions so both sides can back out from each other.
22:44 < waxwing> also the core idea is that revealing the secret on the blockchain unlocks the other transaction.
22:51 < arubi> yep, the only minor issue (since not everyone can re-org like that) is what if either branch becomes re-orged out.. we used to think miners aren't too hostile :) planning going over this some more today
22:52 < waxwing> arubi: i think i said before, the fundamental concept here is to rely on the blockchain as a publication layer (of the secret). so you have to accept that part of the assumption is that it's reliable, just a question of how many blocks are "final" i guess.
22:53 < arubi> right I agree, you can set just longer locktimes with larger value coinswaps
22:53 < waxwing> i haven't actually thought much about how many blocks i want to use for timeouts, using 10,20 in artificial regtest tests, i guess maybe like 50,100 in real life? slow of course, but will need to be conservative.
22:53 < waxwing> yes good point about value dependencies. also backout transactions will have to be deliberately with high fees.
22:54 < waxwing> also, don't talk to me about malleability :(
22:54 < waxwing> although tbh it's only a problem in as much as "crude" blockchain monitoring doesn't work, in principle it's OK.
22:55 < arubi> right
22:59 < arubi> alice sends X to carol, and carol sends the funds from TX5 (sends the sig, same thing). alice re-orging tx0 out (really not going to happen with 50 blocks) or tx4 being censored will make carol lose. malleability might cause carol to lose track of tx3 and miss the secret (can be avoided by listening to the script being funded instead of txid)
22:59 < gmaxwell> waxwing: not reorg safe.
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23:00 < gmaxwell> waxwing: there is a strong invarient in bitcoin that anything that is valid cannot become invalid due to just chance, you have to actually have a double spend to potentially invalidate something.
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23:01 < gmaxwell> waxwing: use cases for expiration like effects have largely been really shallow too... I've yet to encounter a case where you can't just accomplish it by writing a seperate spend.
23:03 < gmaxwell> waxwing: the other reason that if it existed it wouldn't be as a CLTV NOT in the script is that script being pure and monotone makes it cachable... so when a block is mined (or a reorg happens) you don't need to go re-execute all the scripts in all the transactions just to find out if any were negated... all you have to do is manage conflicts and locktimes... and stay out of the slow script execution.
23:03 < waxwing> gmaxwell: the above is about the discussion of the idea of "NOT CLTV"?
23:04 < gmaxwell> (because of not being mindful of this, ethereum nodes are basically impossible to make high performance without large amounts of super risky dynamic interperatation and tracing code).
23:04 < gmaxwell> waxwing: yes
23:04 < waxwing> interesting thoughts, thanks. i was vaguely aware it was problematic/issues.
23:05 < gmaxwell> (though that last issue could be resolved by having an explicit expire field rather than accomplishing it via script)
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