--- Day changed Mon Jul 03 2017
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11:51 < goregrind> hey guys, can makers put a negative fee ?
11:51 < waxwing> i actually can't remember
11:52 < waxwing> i'll check
11:53 < goregrind> this was one of the use cases discussed at the inception of joinmarket, I'm wondering how come no one is doing it
11:55 < waxwing> i feel like i remember it happening, actually
11:55 < waxwing> but i can't remember if it was disabled
11:56 < waxwing> patientsendpayment gives this effect, worth mentioning
11:56 < waxwing> no hang on, not the same.
11:58 < waxwing> i think it is allowed. calc_cj_fee on taker side doesn't seem to disallow it. need to check the order selection too.
12:02 < waxwing> yeah pretty sure it is allowed, and the default order choice algo just gives it a bigger weight as expected. i'll have to remember the maths of the exponential weighting, i remember looking at it before and it doesn't do anything stupid.
12:04 < waxwing> right because the weighting is done as a delta of each fee from the minfee. so it doesn't make a difference to the selection algo, if the lowest happens to be negative.
12:17 < goregrind> is there any joinmarket volume data ? I wonder how long would it take someone to mix 1btc by using a negative fee maker
12:25 < waxwing> no guarantee but just did some tests with ygens all with a negative relfee, seemed to work fine.
12:26 < waxwing> "no guarantee" basically means i can't remember much from 1.5yrs+ ago last time i thought about it, so i'd rather you didn't :)
12:26 < waxwing> fwiw i'm seeing healthy volume last few days even with a pretty high fee, i bet you'd get a fair amount with a close to zero absfee
12:27 < waxwing> i suspect there aren't that many in the pit, although i haven't lurked in there for a while
12:29 < waxwing> also you can bump your txfee setting higher; this is taken into account in calculating your overall fee, too, that can make it effectively negative
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12:35 < cbits> I'll test it out with low absfee soon, will let ya'll know results
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12:38 < waxwing> fwiw i'm pretty sure now it's fine. but one should always be careful.
12:41 < cbits> I was already doing low absoffers on my own money for a while and it worked quite well
12:41 < waxwing> yeah; when fees got ridiculous it mostly dried up of course.
12:42 < waxwing> although at the high extreme of cj size it probably didn't make *so* much difference.
12:42 < waxwing> but even if you're rich you probably didn't want to pay like $20-$40 for a join :)
12:47 < waxwing> bear in mind the non-technical issue, that if your negative fee is larger than the txfee they incur (they can code it to use 1 maker and fix it to be you), then they can drain your account, in principle :) it's the issue of being a passive waiter/acceptor rather than initiator.
12:47 < waxwing> of course that's not really an issue for tiny negative fees
12:48 < waxwing> also, using this as a mixing strategy has the disadvantage that your linkages are known to your counterparty.
12:56 < goregrind> true that, thats enough of a disincentive :)
12:56 < waxwing> you mean the last one, about linkages goregrind ?
13:04 < goregrind> yea     
13:05 < waxwing> goregrind: i think that's the least issue, really. i mean, unless your adversary is interpol or something, you're getting most of what joinmarket offers that way, plus the best of all worlds is to mix taker and maker roles.
13:05 < waxwing> that's one of the main points of patientsendpayment
13:05 < waxwing> if each participant only ever participates as one role (maker only, or taker only), it's giving the adversary a much better chance of figuring out what happens. although tumbler helps greatly.
13:07 < waxwing> to be clearer, if you use a ygen as a mix of your coins, your risk is that *all* the takers who used you collude to disentangle your linkages. so like i say it's not much of a threat in realistic scenarios.
13:13 < waxwing> heh, i just paid someone as a maker. yw. and inb4 dox :)
13:18 < waxwing> hmm, don't think i'd thought about it carefully enough before .. swapping maker/taker in different txs is great, but this creates 2 participants in *1* tx that look like takers. that makes analysis much harder - and all the more if the negative fees continue (ideally sometimes).
13:18 < waxwing> we already have randomised fees, and i believe you can set it to randomize across the zero border. that's kinda a nice way of doing things.
13:23 < waxwing> just a repeated request if anyone has any ideas to help this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/joinmarket/comments/6kbxdr/get_coins_out_of_old_joinmarketqt_gui/djqjf5e/?context=10000
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13:51 < waxwing> for clarity, the question is *not* about joinmarketqt, despite the title. he was actually using sendpayment/scripts.
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