--- Day changed Fri Aug 11 2017 00:53 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:12 < fluffypony> lol - asking in joinmarket if there's a reliable Bitcoin mixer 01:12 < fluffypony> facepalm 01:38 -!- Anduck_ is now known as Anduck 01:51 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@pluto.vpn.torvpn.com] has joined #joinmarket 01:52 < proslogion> so, how well has the pay-to-contract anti-sybil fix been working? 01:52 * proslogion being a slowpoke and shamelessly so 01:53 < waxwing> proslogion: we didn't use it, we used discrete log equivalence proof 01:54 < proslogion> yeah, that's what I meant, also shamelessly confusing the terminologies 01:54 < waxwing> hard to say, the sybil attack of that particular form disappeared completely; it did make the system harder to use for the casual user. 01:54 < waxwing> but i think the other approaches would have made it even harder. 01:54 < proslogion> i would call it a success then :) 01:54 < waxwing> also in the 2-3 months after the change, after a couple of fixes, the volume was easily as high as before 01:55 < waxwing> well, something like - i noted doing 50 txs/ day in november 01:55 < waxwing> but from december a couple of things conspired to make the system increasingly difficult to use, so volume fell off and continued to thereafter 01:55 < waxwing> the biggest two factors were bitcoin tx fees and blockr.io becoming unusable first on Tails, and then anywhere 01:56 < waxwing> we for a long time needed a decent and reasonably private light client solution but don't have it yet. 01:57 < waxwing> (50 txs/day was just me, btw, obv more than that total, but don't keep track) 01:57 < proslogion> ->bitcoin tx fees: are you referring to difficulty in fee estimation or just fees being high? 01:58 < waxwing> proslogion: definitely the latter 01:59 < waxwing> difficulty in estimation is somewhat less important here than the average bitcoin transaction 01:59 < proslogion> hmmm, very interesting 01:59 < waxwing> but large fees are greatly magnified in this use case 01:59 < waxwing> you couldn't run a tumbler without paying say $40 in fees, realistically, a few months ago 01:59 < waxwing> maybe you would end up spending $100 i guess, in some scenarios 02:00 < waxwing> cuts out all but the largest users, which is not much good. not many people want to put up 100 btc or something for joins. 02:01 < waxwing> and running a single join is of very limited use (although i greatly encourage people who use JM to do it, because it helps to screw up analysts if we mix and match our roles) 02:01 < proslogion> that sounds weird....so a JM tx is easily larger than 10k? 02:01 < waxwing> proslogion: no typically you're looking at 1K-3K (sometimes a bit larger, rarely) 02:01 < waxwing> but a tumbler is typically at least 10 txs 02:02 < waxwing> and the Taker pays all the fees minus epsilon 02:02 < waxwing> the coinjoin fees are *usually* negligible compared to the bitcoin tx fees, except at very high absolute sizes. 02:02 < waxwing> i mean, absolute btc amounts. 02:02 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #joinmarket 02:03 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:03 < waxwing> btw i did a fun experiment a couple of weeks ago, set negative fees. things went as expected. 02:03 < proslogion> hmmm...so where does the $40 fee come from, must be something about tumbler's working that I don't understand 02:03 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #joinmarket 02:03 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:04 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #joinmarket 02:04 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:05 < waxwing> 2kB * 10 = 20000, say 300 sats/byte, that's 0.06 btc ... oh no i got it wrong, it's way worse. yeah that makes sense actually. 02:05 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #joinmarket 02:05 < waxwing> because in those 300 sats/byte days you could easily pay $3 for a normal tx. 02:05 < waxwing> so for a jm tx paying $15 for a single tx would not be that strange. 02:07 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08 < waxwing> as of today of course it's significantly better, although Mr Bitcoin spammer (if such exists) is looking like he might be back 02:09 < proslogion> so were you talking about a tumbler 02:09 < proslogion> so were you talking about a tumbler's fee cost per day? 02:10 < waxwing> yes, my "$40" was pulled out of my posterior, the calculation ^ is more to the point 02:10 < waxwing> i mean tumbler.py in joinmarket 02:10 < proslogion> thank you very much 02:11 < waxwing> sorry i just assume everyone knows what we call things here, i forget that that mostly isn't the case :) 02:11 < proslogion> it's inexcusable to mix the dimesions :) 02:12 < waxwing> are you objecting to 2kB * 10 = 20000? :) 02:12 < waxwing> oh no that's not dimensions is it 02:12 < waxwing> so no eye deer what you mean 02:13 < proslogion> but look at it from another perspective, JM could realistically use about 1% of the network's total tx thoroughput 02:13 < waxwing> yes why not. or coinjoin generally. or .. 5%. 02:13 < proslogion> i meant like, probably you meant you couldn't run a tumbler without paying say *$40/day* in fees 02:13 < waxwing> i'd much rather seen 5% of network spent on that than some frickin' dice game or shitcoin exchanger ;) 02:13 < waxwing> proslogion: oh but no 02:14 < waxwing> i meant specifically "run the algorithm we call "tumbler" in JM" 02:14 < waxwing> which is not a continuous thing. 02:14 < proslogion> ah....so where does the number '10' come from 02:14 < waxwing> hang on let me grab a link 02:15 < proslogion> waxwing: but that maybe the real problem: JM is not a sustainable business model to justify the fees and priced out of the market.... 02:16 < waxwing> this link you should take you to a bullet point list of the tumbler algo https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md#tumbler-algorithm 02:16 < proslogion> waxwing: thanks 02:16 < waxwing> 10 is a typical number, but can certainly be a lot more: say 3-4 transactions per mixdepth, 4-5 mixdepths something like that (mixdepth=account) 02:17 < waxwing> proslogion: re priced out of the market, yes, coinjoin is an expensive kind of model for fungibility; that's why we're interested in other ideas too 02:18 < waxwing> i made a tool to do privacy-preserving coinswaps https://github.com/AdamISZ/CoinSwapCS 02:18 < waxwing> had it working on segwit but as you can imagine it's all quite non-trivial. i'll probably go back to it later. at least it was nice to establish some kind of proof of concept. 02:19 < waxwing> the main thing i learned about was that a properly privacy-preserving coinswap is a pretty tricky thing to attempt; and adding fees was an interesting exercise, although it got a bit complicated 02:20 < waxwing> proslogion: i also wrote about it in a bit of detail here https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/coinswaps/ 02:22 < proslogion> waxwing: is transaction cut-through able to help somehow 02:22 < waxwing> with the cost of CJ? 02:22 < proslogion> yes 02:23 < proslogion> to be specific, with a tumbler 02:23 < waxwing> hmm is there any proposal for that? i only know the general idea 02:24 < waxwing> oh duckduckgo helps :) 02:25 < waxwing> proslogion: my initial instinct is to say 'no' because we don't actually want to net, we want to build that transaction graph specifically on-chain. 02:25 < proslogion> sounds like it 02:37 < waxwing> i was about to say 'it might be useful to have coinswap be cut-through, though', but then i realised that's basically lightning network :) 02:51 < proslogion> waxwing: reading your analysis I can't help thinking that to be the best at selecting mixing parties and obfuscation you need to be best at blockchain analytics as well 02:59 < waxwing> proslogion: oh btw @nopara started working on a chaumian server-based CJ model 02:59 < waxwing> https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink just a doc and some discussion in issues. 03:01 < proslogion> 'Zero' is the new 'Dark' :) 03:01 < waxwing> yeah. 03:01 < waxwing> ZeroDark30 03:04 < proslogion> waxwing: back in 2011 there was a chaumian exchange, no similar service was offered ever since it shutted down 03:04 < waxwing> orly 03:05 < proslogion> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blind_Bitcoin_Transfers not an exchange actually 03:11 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Quit: (┛◉Д◉)┛┻━┻] 03:33 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] AdamISZ pushed 2 new commits to develop: https://git.io/v7ypr 03:33 < GithubBot5678> joinmarket/develop 4bcc65e Adlai Chandrasekhar: fix scrub-log.py bug: also scrub unicode TXIDs... 03:33 < GithubBot5678> joinmarket/develop d984c4b Adam Gibson: Merge #744: fix scrub-log.py bug: also scrub unicode TXIDs... 03:37 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #joinmarket 03:37 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:38 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined 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[5db797e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.151.232] has joined #joinmarket 16:24 -!- Giszmo [~leo@net-188-153-234-97.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24 -!- Giszmo [~leo@net-188-153-234-97.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #joinmarket 17:38 -!- Giszmo [~leo@net-188-153-234-97.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43 -!- Giszmo [~leo@net-188-153-234-97.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #joinmarket 17:50 -!- Giszmo [~leo@net-188-153-234-97.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32 -!- numer0us [425aa531@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.90.165.49] has joined #joinmarket 19:33 < numer0us> Hi, I'm having trouble running the wallet tool, I'm on OSX, I get the error "OSError: Could not locate nacl lib, searched for libsodium", I have libsodium and libnacl installed any idea how to debug this 19:40 -!- numer0us [425aa531@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.90.165.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46 -!- akrmn 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